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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
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17
FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 11:46

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:19

I don’t see it that way.

We all establish our own comfort levels, based on our own experiences and own views. I’ve got mine, you’ve got yours.

Yours, has just been endorsed by the SC, which is fair enough. You won’t see me fighting against it. My needs aren’t the same as yours, you’ve got what you need - good for you.

But not needing the same thing doesn’t make me sexist, it makes me different to you.

What about changing rooms? Are you seriously saying you'd be happy for a man to expose his penis to you?

What is the difference between a man in a trench coat flashing women and girls, and a man flashing women and girls in a changing room?

Also what about rape crisis centres and battered womens shelters, where women are traumatised and freeze at the sight and sound of a male? Still think it's ok for rape survivors like me to have to sit in a group with males or be housed with males?

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:48

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 11:43

No it’s not the same - you do like a false equivalence don’t you?

Women are telling you we need something - spaces, words etc. You have told us we shouldn’t even be arguing about it because you think it’s unfair on the men that identify as women. You have argued for language that undermines everything we need.

We haven’t told you that you can’t have your mixed sex spaces although we have understandably told you that your views on language are based on a false premise.

No.. women have said they need something. I have said I don’t need that thing but don’t prevent others from having it, you resist that.

You personally resist that by so far, implying that I’m stupid, or naive, and by asking condescending questions.

You’ll notice I’m largely ignoring them. Nobody said you have to agree with me, I don’t agree with you, but I won’t engage with being spoken down to (naive, logic/reading help) because of that.

If that’s how you want to communicate, cool, but you’ll be doing it to yourself and shouting into a void.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:53

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 11:46

What about changing rooms? Are you seriously saying you'd be happy for a man to expose his penis to you?

What is the difference between a man in a trench coat flashing women and girls, and a man flashing women and girls in a changing room?

Also what about rape crisis centres and battered womens shelters, where women are traumatised and freeze at the sight and sound of a male? Still think it's ok for rape survivors like me to have to sit in a group with males or be housed with males?

I don’t think it’s okay for you to have to do anything you’re not comfortable with. Under the law you actually don’t have to do anything you’re not comfortable with.

I have a different basis of comfort, that you don’t have to understand, share or even endorse. We’re not all the same.

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 11:53

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:29

Okay.

Say for example my views are my own, and I didn’t ask a man for them, does it make me sexist to back my own corner? Since I am a legit certified adult human feeling.

I think that relies on the assumption that women who don’t agree are all under some sort of male spell. Which undermines their ability to make their own mind up.

Yet again you misrepresent the post - nobody said you are under some sort of male spell and nobody said you expressing your personal needs is sexist.

What IS sexist is you taking the side of a man who wants to be in women’s spaces and adopting language that undermines women’s rights in general.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:55

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 11:53

Yet again you misrepresent the post - nobody said you are under some sort of male spell and nobody said you expressing your personal needs is sexist.

What IS sexist is you taking the side of a man who wants to be in women’s spaces and adopting language that undermines women’s rights in general.

Taking my own side. As a woman. With my own views.

That, by nature, isn’t sexist.

andtheworldrollson · 25/04/2025 11:56

Taking your own views is not sexist

what those views are is

WearyAuldWumman · 25/04/2025 11:57

[ETA Missed the quote. This was in response to the comment about Stonewall extending their definition of a trans woman.]

Which leads to someone like Alex Drummond claiming to widen the bandwidth of womanhood and telling us that he's a lesbian.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-transgender-woman-has-a-full-beard-and-she-couldnt-be-h

This Trans Woman Kept Her Beard And Couldn't Be Happier

"I'm widening the bandwidth of how to be a woman." Alex Drummond talks to BuzzFeed News about why she kept her beard after transitioning – and how others react.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/this-transgender-woman-has-a-full-beard-and-she-couldnt-be-h

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:58

andtheworldrollson · 25/04/2025 11:56

Taking your own views is not sexist

what those views are is

Can you explain for me how having my own opinion is sexist?

If it’s helpful - I haven’t held a male forum to get their opinion on those views, or asked a single man to confirm them. I haven’t consulted with the trans community.

I have looked at a situation, formed an opinion, and kept it.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 12:02

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:39

I see it as prioritising my own views and beliefs over those of others, of any sex.

Which isn’t anti-feminist. I don’t believe it to be, anyway.

I prioritise them in the sense that they’re not changing because someone else says they should. But I don’t prioritise them in the sense that I am both incapable and not interested in making your life harder by dragging men into it.

The only time I admit to doing that, is when someone suggested my heavily disabled, completely unaware, stepson was classified by sex because he’s 8 years old, so shouldn’t go to swimming pools with sex specific bathrooms. That’s a common sense judgment in my view, and it’s an exception that I do make and a hill I am happy to die on.

It doesn't matter that your son is heavily disabled, completely unaware, it matters how vulnerable women and girls feel in his company. You are discounting their needs, and only thinking about your son. He doesn't override the needs of all women and girls.

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 12:04

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:55

Taking my own side. As a woman. With my own views.

That, by nature, isn’t sexist.

No, you took his side. You told us off for arguing and not using the right language and then have spent a lot of time misrepresenting and twisting people posts.

Unless you are actually OP and his side is your side?

FWIW my questions were reasonable, I just don’t think you gave an answer.

andtheworldrollson · 25/04/2025 12:05

Single sex spaces were introduced because wmen were uncomfortable with shared spaces and seeing men’s dicks that the effect was women were not fully part of society and that’s a bad thing

single sex sports exist because women’s bodies are materially different and women wouldn’t be able to win almost anything if they competed against men meaning women are excluded from high level sport to the detriment of women because exercise is good and those women act as role models

your happiness to include men in women’s spaces means you are happy that women get pushed out by default , or perhaps you thing they should educate themselves to not care about a man swinging his dick around , to educate themselves out of PTSD (which affects women more than soldiers because of the amount of sex abuse women suffer ) or and to educate themselves not to be scared about their bones being smashed to smithereens in a mixed sex rugby tackle

i can’t think of any way you could be being thoughtful and not mysogenistic to support the removal of single sex stuff.

andtheworldrollson · 25/04/2025 12:07

erm @SleeplessInWherever

i explicitly said that having your own opinion isn’t sexist

but the opinion you hold is

take a few more seconds to read the post !

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 12:07

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 12:04

No, you took his side. You told us off for arguing and not using the right language and then have spent a lot of time misrepresenting and twisting people posts.

Unless you are actually OP and his side is your side?

FWIW my questions were reasonable, I just don’t think you gave an answer.

Your questions were reasonable?

They started by questioning whether I had logic skills because I didn’t agree. Very reasonable.

I’m not OP, I’m an average human female whose views aren’t represented by the GC community. We exist too.

OP is long gone, probably ran away regretting their decision to engage at all.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 12:09

andtheworldrollson · 25/04/2025 12:07

erm @SleeplessInWherever

i explicitly said that having your own opinion isn’t sexist

but the opinion you hold is

take a few more seconds to read the post !

Okay.

How is having your own comfort level, not informed by men or other women, in the presence of males inherently sexist?

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 12:09

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:53

I don’t think it’s okay for you to have to do anything you’re not comfortable with. Under the law you actually don’t have to do anything you’re not comfortable with.

I have a different basis of comfort, that you don’t have to understand, share or even endorse. We’re not all the same.

But you were arguing that women don't need these spaces, and think men should be in them. That forces women and girls to do something we're not comfortable with. Is there a reason you won't answer the questions? Which is, would you feel comfortable with a man exposing his penis to you in the changerooms?

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 12:10

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 12:02

It doesn't matter that your son is heavily disabled, completely unaware, it matters how vulnerable women and girls feel in his company. You are discounting their needs, and only thinking about your son. He doesn't override the needs of all women and girls.

Well. I’m afraid it does matter that he is heavily disabled. It certainly matters to me, and his parents.

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 12:12

I think you set the ‘condescending’ bar when you told us to stop arguing in case it upset the man.

I didn’t intend to be condescending but you do have a habit of ‘interpreting’ /misrepresenting posts in such a way that left me assuming you needed further explanation. I do apologise if that was unnecessary and your points were deliberate.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 12:12

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 12:09

But you were arguing that women don't need these spaces, and think men should be in them. That forces women and girls to do something we're not comfortable with. Is there a reason you won't answer the questions? Which is, would you feel comfortable with a man exposing his penis to you in the changerooms?

I’d love to tell you I have a sensible answer to that question. But the only one I have available is that I’m not intimidated by the fact men have penises.

I don’t need those spaces. You do. The sex class of “woman” don’t all need the same things.

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 12:12

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 12:10

Well. I’m afraid it does matter that he is heavily disabled. It certainly matters to me, and his parents.

Yes, it matters to you. But that does not override the needs and rights of women and girls to for comfortable and safe.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 12:16

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 12:12

Yes, it matters to you. But that does not override the needs and rights of women and girls to for comfortable and safe.

As I said when I first conceded to saying I wouldn’t remove him from female spaces - it’s a hill I’m more than happy to die on.

Where possible he is taken into either shared or accessible spaces. Where not possible, I wouldn’t not take him somewhere because it only had SSS. I wouldn’t exclude him from certain activities/places because others can’t accept his genuine level of need.

We can honestly do this specific bit all afternoon. Genuinely. But I will be sacrificed on the alter of disability needs, happy to be GC murdered atop that particular hill. The debate can continue, but my mind won’t change.

You’re welcome to not like that and not agree. That won’t change a single thing.

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 12:18

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 12:07

Your questions were reasonable?

They started by questioning whether I had logic skills because I didn’t agree. Very reasonable.

I’m not OP, I’m an average human female whose views aren’t represented by the GC community. We exist too.

OP is long gone, probably ran away regretting their decision to engage at all.

No it wasn’t because you didn’t agree. It’s because you made a blatant false equivalence that entirely misrepresented the point.

And are constantly misrepresenting posts/making stuff up - you’ve literally just done it to @andtheworldrollson

Anyway, you don’t want to engage in good faith anymore and I’m happy not to engage with you.

commonsense61 · 25/04/2025 12:23

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

LameBorzoi · 25/04/2025 12:23

Annoyedone · 25/04/2025 11:13

How do you know if you’re gender dysmorpic or not? Until someone can define gender, how does someone know their gender does not align with their sex? What are the measurable criterion that are used to determine gender? If gender is just a sense of inner self, then it cannot therefore be measured. Anorexic people have body dysmorphia, but that can be measured. Gender cannot.

I'm not a psychologist, so if someone tells me they are gender dysphoric, I'm happy enough to just listen.

However, the needs of one person do not override the rights for single sex spaces.

andtheworldrollson · 25/04/2025 12:23

So you would take a boy into a female area rather than take him to the male area

could you explain why .. in a way that doesn’t totally shoot yourself in the foot in the process

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 12:31

andtheworldrollson · 25/04/2025 12:23

So you would take a boy into a female area rather than take him to the male area

could you explain why .. in a way that doesn’t totally shoot yourself in the foot in the process

Yeah, of course.

I’m not disabled, or in anyway cognitively impaired.

My presence in a male changing facility could make some of them uncomfortable, in the same way that it would make some women. They could assume that I’m looking, perving, whatever. There could be a question of intent. Looking at this thread, it’s a question that applies in the reverse. So it seems reasonable that some of the male population might share the same view.

That’s why his disability does matter. You couldn’t reasonably assume that 8 year old had any ill intent towards women. He doesn’t acknowledge you’re alive, nevermind a biological female. There is no reasonable chance he’s looking at your body, or encouraging you to look at his.

You would then just be saying that you feel uncomfortable in the presence of a disabled child, once you remove the intent and awareness argument. And I don’t believe it’s reasonable to be uncomfortable about 8 year old disabled kids.

If there is an exception to SSS, it shouldn’t be the parents of disabled children, it should be the actual children. Why would I be an exception in a male space, I’m not the one with any reason to be outside of that child’s needs.

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