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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 10:57

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 10:49

I’d like to unpack this comment a bit more if you are ok with that, @SleeplessInWherever- what do you actually mean? Women are women and the spaces are for us to use for our own privacy and dignity. How is that in any sense the same as a man using them because he “identifies as a woman” and believes that using them is his right, and validates his (false) claim?

Yeah sure.

What I meant by that was that women seek validation, in the sense that they’re looking for confirmation of being right.

If we all know, which we do, that biology is an unchanging fact, we know what women are. When I say I wouldn’t have taken it to court, it’s because I didn’t need the validation of knowing that biological women are women - because they just are.

It was my assumption that the SC victory was in part seen as one, because it is validation that you were right all along. If you don’t feel validated by the judgment, then clearly I was wrong to assume that.

The group here were, I thought, seeking institutional validation. Trans women are seeking cultural validation, they’re not the same thing. But both - are validation.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:58

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:51

All of this heavily implies that all 'male bodied' people are sexual abusers and perverts until proven otherwise - do you actually believe that?

No, but excluding all males from women's spaces allows us to exclude almost 100% of sexual abusers and perverts.

EweSurname · 25/04/2025 10:59

It’s not validation for the sake of it though - it’s so that our legal rights can be upheld, in a way that they haven’t been for the last decade.

LillyPJ · 25/04/2025 11:00

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:45

This is a good point.

By way of analogy, the word belle-mère in French means both mother-in-law and stepmother. So if someone uses this word when describing a family event, it may not be clear whether the person they are talking about is their spouse's mother or their father's wife. I don't understand why they don't have different words for these two things, as we do in English.

Similarly, it would be helpful to have different words for a male person with gender dysphoria and a male person with autogynephilia.

Off topic really but, for example, we use 'aunt' to describe both our mother's and father's sister or sister-in-law. In some other languages different words are used to distinguish between them. There are many other instances so English isn't a shining example of precision!

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 11:00

HonestAquaMember · 25/04/2025 10:51

All of this heavily implies that all 'male bodied' people are sexual abusers and perverts until proven otherwise - do you actually believe that?

No, it does not 'imply' any such thing at all. It's about privacy and dignity away from the male gaze, not just about safety. BUT, 98% or 99% (depending on which countries you look at) of all sexual offences are by males, so it is primarily a gendered (sexed) crime.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:01

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 10:48

I think it is purely because she feels sorry for them.

It isn’t, I don’t feel sorry for the ones threatening to murder women - for example.

It’s because I genuinely don’t require a separate communal space. Individually. Which is against the grain here but still my view on it.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 11:01

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 10:57

Yeah sure.

What I meant by that was that women seek validation, in the sense that they’re looking for confirmation of being right.

If we all know, which we do, that biology is an unchanging fact, we know what women are. When I say I wouldn’t have taken it to court, it’s because I didn’t need the validation of knowing that biological women are women - because they just are.

It was my assumption that the SC victory was in part seen as one, because it is validation that you were right all along. If you don’t feel validated by the judgment, then clearly I was wrong to assume that.

The group here were, I thought, seeking institutional validation. Trans women are seeking cultural validation, they’re not the same thing. But both - are validation.

God, this is such a bad take.

FWS didn't go to the Supreme Court to validate themselves in their belief that women are female people.

They went to the Supreme Court to enforce female people's sex based rights under the law.

EweSurname · 25/04/2025 11:02

honestaquamember

do you not agree with single sex spaces at all then?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 11:02

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:01

It isn’t, I don’t feel sorry for the ones threatening to murder women - for example.

It’s because I genuinely don’t require a separate communal space. Individually. Which is against the grain here but still my view on it.

But surely knowing that other women do require this is enough for you to oppose members of the opposite sex being in women's spaces?

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:03

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 11:02

But surely knowing that other women do require this is enough for you to oppose members of the opposite sex being in women's spaces?

It’s not enough for me to change my personal view on it, in the same way that my not agreeing doesn’t (and doesn’t need to) change yours?

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 11:03

Annoyedone · 25/04/2025 10:55

@HonestAquaMember if I gave you a bowl of chocolate peanuts but told you some were actually shit, would you eat them? How can women tell which men are predators? They haven’t got diamonds over their heads like on the sims.

Edited

That's a great analogy. Just like this:

Conciliatory Conversation On gender
BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 11:05

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 10:46

Read my other posts. I’ve never said TWAW.

But in order to establish the concept of ‘TWAW’ you first need to make actual women a subset ie ‘cis women’.

Then you can introduce a different type of ‘woman’ the ‘trans woman’.

So effectively, you may not intend to, but you arguing for the acceptability of ‘cis’ women as a concept leads directly to TWAW.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:09

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 11:05

But in order to establish the concept of ‘TWAW’ you first need to make actual women a subset ie ‘cis women’.

Then you can introduce a different type of ‘woman’ the ‘trans woman’.

So effectively, you may not intend to, but you arguing for the acceptability of ‘cis’ women as a concept leads directly to TWAW.

If the definition of cis earlier is to be believed, it’s just a word that describes someone who isn’t gender dysmorphic. Which I am.

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 11:09

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:01

It isn’t, I don’t feel sorry for the ones threatening to murder women - for example.

It’s because I genuinely don’t require a separate communal space. Individually. Which is against the grain here but still my view on it.

But you are not just quietly ‘not needing a separate (single sex) space - you are here spending a long time undermining women and telling us to stop being ‘unkind’ (ie saying no) to OP. And also arguing to undermine our essential language whether you realise it or not.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 11:11

LillyPJ · 25/04/2025 11:00

Off topic really but, for example, we use 'aunt' to describe both our mother's and father's sister or sister-in-law. In some other languages different words are used to distinguish between them. There are many other instances so English isn't a shining example of precision!

Yes, my sister in law (my husband's brother's wife, not my husband's sister or my brother's wife) was telling me that they have different words for maternal and paternal aunt and uncle in Turkish.

We could probably do with three different words for sister in law, but at least we're not as bad as the French, who use the same word for stepsister as well!

I could also do with different words for evil sister in law and nice sister in law, but that's another story!

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:13

BundleBoogie · 25/04/2025 11:09

But you are not just quietly ‘not needing a separate (single sex) space - you are here spending a long time undermining women and telling us to stop being ‘unkind’ (ie saying no) to OP. And also arguing to undermine our essential language whether you realise it or not.

You’re not here quietly needing a sex specific space, you’re here undermining the views of other women and policing the descriptions they’re happy to accept of themselves when others use them to refer to them.

You see how that works, right?

I’m here not agreeing with you, if you’re taking that as being undermined, I can’t help you.

Annoyedone · 25/04/2025 11:13

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:09

If the definition of cis earlier is to be believed, it’s just a word that describes someone who isn’t gender dysmorphic. Which I am.

How do you know if you’re gender dysmorpic or not? Until someone can define gender, how does someone know their gender does not align with their sex? What are the measurable criterion that are used to determine gender? If gender is just a sense of inner self, then it cannot therefore be measured. Anorexic people have body dysmorphia, but that can be measured. Gender cannot.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 11:14

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:03

It’s not enough for me to change my personal view on it, in the same way that my not agreeing doesn’t (and doesn’t need to) change yours?

Really?

Because that's where I really struggle with your point of view.

If you personally feel you have no skin in the game (because you don't feel you need single sex spaces), but you know that some men want to be in women's spaces and some women really need those spaces to be single sex, coming to the conclusion that the men should be allowed in looks rather like misogyny to me. Because the implication is that you think that what the men want is more important than what the women need.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 11:15

Annoyedone · 25/04/2025 11:13

How do you know if you’re gender dysmorpic or not? Until someone can define gender, how does someone know their gender does not align with their sex? What are the measurable criterion that are used to determine gender? If gender is just a sense of inner self, then it cannot therefore be measured. Anorexic people have body dysmorphia, but that can be measured. Gender cannot.

Surely it should more properly described as sex dysphoria. A feeling of profound discomfort with one's sexed body.

It's not really about gender, because gender isn't real.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:16

Annoyedone · 25/04/2025 11:13

How do you know if you’re gender dysmorpic or not? Until someone can define gender, how does someone know their gender does not align with their sex? What are the measurable criterion that are used to determine gender? If gender is just a sense of inner self, then it cannot therefore be measured. Anorexic people have body dysmorphia, but that can be measured. Gender cannot.

I knew I had an ED, because I had one. If you’d have told me (after recovery) that I didn’t, I’d have told you that you were wrong. I know my body and my perspective of it better than you do.

Having been at odds with my own body, which I’m aware isn’t a me-specific experience, I can well believe that others are for different reasons.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 11:17

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 10:57

Yeah sure.

What I meant by that was that women seek validation, in the sense that they’re looking for confirmation of being right.

If we all know, which we do, that biology is an unchanging fact, we know what women are. When I say I wouldn’t have taken it to court, it’s because I didn’t need the validation of knowing that biological women are women - because they just are.

It was my assumption that the SC victory was in part seen as one, because it is validation that you were right all along. If you don’t feel validated by the judgment, then clearly I was wrong to assume that.

The group here were, I thought, seeking institutional validation. Trans women are seeking cultural validation, they’re not the same thing. But both - are validation.

That’s not the same as suggesting SSS are about validation. We (and I contributed) didn’t take the case to the Supreme Court because we wanted to be right, we did it because we wanted to protect women’s spaces and other rights.

EweSurname · 25/04/2025 11:18

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:09

If the definition of cis earlier is to be believed, it’s just a word that describes someone who isn’t gender dysmorphic. Which I am.

Stonewall does not think dysphoria is a prerequisite to being trans. Eg (this is not stonewall) https://www.gendergp.com/not-all-trans-people-experience-gender-dysphoria/

So where does that leave what cis and trans mean?

Not All Transgender People Experience Gender Dysphoria

There's a common misconception in society that all transgender people experience gender dysphoria. This isn't true – we explain why.

https://www.gendergp.com/not-all-trans-people-experience-gender-dysphoria/

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 11:18

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:09

If the definition of cis earlier is to be believed, it’s just a word that describes someone who isn’t gender dysmorphic. Which I am.

No @SleeplessInWhereverthat is not all it is.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:19

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 25/04/2025 11:14

Really?

Because that's where I really struggle with your point of view.

If you personally feel you have no skin in the game (because you don't feel you need single sex spaces), but you know that some men want to be in women's spaces and some women really need those spaces to be single sex, coming to the conclusion that the men should be allowed in looks rather like misogyny to me. Because the implication is that you think that what the men want is more important than what the women need.

I don’t see it that way.

We all establish our own comfort levels, based on our own experiences and own views. I’ve got mine, you’ve got yours.

Yours, has just been endorsed by the SC, which is fair enough. You won’t see me fighting against it. My needs aren’t the same as yours, you’ve got what you need - good for you.

But not needing the same thing doesn’t make me sexist, it makes me different to you.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:20

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 11:17

That’s not the same as suggesting SSS are about validation. We (and I contributed) didn’t take the case to the Supreme Court because we wanted to be right, we did it because we wanted to protect women’s spaces and other rights.

But does the decision not make you feel validated?

Kathleen Stock - we were right. That is validation surely.

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