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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
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17
FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/04/2025 12:32

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:31

Okay. Well to be clear, as I’ve said, women have sought and gained validation from the SC judgement.

Others are seeking cultural and societal validation - from women.

The same word, two different contexts.

And with two very different degrees of consequence.

Validation given by the SC is the legal validation that women do indeed continue to exist as a meaningful legal group to whom rights and languages can be attached.

Validation given by - society I guess? - to TW is validation that people are seeing them as somehow "female" in mind/body/whatever it is rather than as the male-bodied people they know themselves in reality to be.

I think legal validation is far more important, significant and consequential. The social validation, unless it's part of ensuring safety and empowerment, is really just vanity.

As in so much of this, "both sides"ism, "just different meanings for words"ism gets used to imply both sides are roughly equivalent in the impact on those affected and that really isn't true.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2025 12:33

I've come onto this thread late.

I thought we were going to have a transwoman apologise for harm to women.

But no. Just to tell us he doesn't care and will continue to fight to remove women's rights to single sex spaces.

LameBorzoi · 25/04/2025 12:35

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 12:10

Well. I’m afraid it does matter that he is heavily disabled. It certainly matters to me, and his parents.

His needs do not trump other"s needs for privacy.

UmopapIsdn · 25/04/2025 12:36

This is perfect. I now have pages of this man’s posts to screenshot and send my DS who has fallen for the whole TWAW and BE KIND BULLSHIT so he can read for himself the utter insanity, lies, delusions, and ignorance (I was going to say stupidity but I’ll ’BE KIND' and use ignorance instead).

His posts would be hilarious if they weren’t so terrifying.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/04/2025 12:47

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 11:09

If the definition of cis earlier is to be believed, it’s just a word that describes someone who isn’t gender dysmorphic. Which I am.

Sure, but applying that logic, that "trans" just means dysphoric, a male dysphoric is a "trans man".

His having dysphoria ("just a description") does not change him from a type of man to a type of woman UNLESS you implicitly also define womanhood as an mixed sex mental feature, and THAT is relegating women to a subset of their own sex and language to acvomodate a sexist gender construct.

andtheworldrollson · 25/04/2025 12:50

So I should know that your child is ok? How?
Because you say so? you are happy that other women may be unhappy because you know it’s ok? Gee.

strictly at 8 they can be in the ladies anyway

would you still take him in at 13 is more to the point

It’s rather rare in these parts that communal single sex places are not accompanied by private spaces for family groups, disabled etc which is obviously where you should be ( in fact I can’t think of any)

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 12:56

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 12:31

Yeah, of course.

I’m not disabled, or in anyway cognitively impaired.

My presence in a male changing facility could make some of them uncomfortable, in the same way that it would make some women. They could assume that I’m looking, perving, whatever. There could be a question of intent. Looking at this thread, it’s a question that applies in the reverse. So it seems reasonable that some of the male population might share the same view.

That’s why his disability does matter. You couldn’t reasonably assume that 8 year old had any ill intent towards women. He doesn’t acknowledge you’re alive, nevermind a biological female. There is no reasonable chance he’s looking at your body, or encouraging you to look at his.

You would then just be saying that you feel uncomfortable in the presence of a disabled child, once you remove the intent and awareness argument. And I don’t believe it’s reasonable to be uncomfortable about 8 year old disabled kids.

If there is an exception to SSS, it shouldn’t be the parents of disabled children, it should be the actual children. Why would I be an exception in a male space, I’m not the one with any reason to be outside of that child’s needs.

You couldn’t reasonably assume that 8 year old had any ill intent towards women. He doesn’t acknowledge you’re alive, nevermind a biological female. There is no reasonable chance he’s looking at your body, or encouraging you to look at his.

You really, genuinely don't get it. It's not about intent. Intent or non intent is completely irrelevant. Or about him being disabled.

It's about him being male. And women and girls feeling uncomfortable based on that.

And will you still be taking him into the womens when he is 20?

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 12:59

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2025 12:33

I've come onto this thread late.

I thought we were going to have a transwoman apologise for harm to women.

But no. Just to tell us he doesn't care and will continue to fight to remove women's rights to single sex spaces.

"I thought we were going to have a transwoman apologise for harm to women."

Bwhahahahahahahha dream on! The day a transwoman apologises for harm to women is the day hell will freeze over and Donald Trump will become a socialist or communist.

TheBroonOneAndTheWhiteOne · 25/04/2025 13:01
Sarcastic Sorry Not Sorry GIF

"I thought we were going to have a transwoman apologise for harm to women."

Ha ha ha ha!

As if.........

andtheworldrollson · 25/04/2025 13:03

It’s quite possible to have gender dysmorphia and not be transgender though so cis wouldn’t be appropriate - because cis refers to gender

gender dysmorphia being extreme distress caused by one’s sex or more specially in this example caused by other peoples assumptions ( gender constraints) and your deviations from the expected (gender ) norm for your sex - all caused by your sex with a dash of disgust at the female body and its biology. Especially when that makes you prone to sex based abuse

but it might not lead to someone identifying as transgender- they may ( and have ) found other ways to handle their emotional problems

the most common approach amongst females is to reject gender - that doesn’t apply to me thank you very much - without rejecting that you are who you are ( female human adult)

it’s a healthier approach as it doesn’t require hormones and surgery and can help mental health as you are externalising the problem - it’s not me that wrong it’s other people. I don’t need to change / it would be good if they did but I can’t change others . I can just reject their thinking and live my own life being wholly ( mentally and physically ) and completely me

ie instead transing gender the persons decide to reject gender - I don’t switch which football team I support I just stop watching football

I think that this approach is feared by the pharmaceutical industry and by those who have stated a medical transition path because if challenges their choices and once people start to think they could have been wrong it’s mentally challenging.

so cut the cis crap as not all women do identify as women and not all women accepted the feminine gender as being their identity

Ereshkigalangcleg · 25/04/2025 13:06

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 12:59

"I thought we were going to have a transwoman apologise for harm to women."

Bwhahahahahahahha dream on! The day a transwoman apologises for harm to women is the day hell will freeze over and Donald Trump will become a socialist or communist.

IMO Donald Trump is more likely to become a “woman” himself than any genuine “conciliation” is to be attempted by men who identify as women.

GailBlancheViola · 25/04/2025 13:12

Okay, and SSS are all about women’s validation. It cuts both ways.

No they are not and no it doesn't. Those spaces are for the safety, dignity and privacy of women.

Validation doesn't come into it for women, the only people who use them in order to be validated as a woman are those who are not.

Needspaceforlego · 25/04/2025 13:13

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 12:59

"I thought we were going to have a transwoman apologise for harm to women."

Bwhahahahahahahha dream on! The day a transwoman apologises for harm to women is the day hell will freeze over and Donald Trump will become a socialist or communist.

Hahaha

Wee bit of respect for Mr Trump, he has made two sexes official said they couldn't be changed and scrapped DEI polices!!!

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 13:17

FlakyCritic · 25/04/2025 12:56

You couldn’t reasonably assume that 8 year old had any ill intent towards women. He doesn’t acknowledge you’re alive, nevermind a biological female. There is no reasonable chance he’s looking at your body, or encouraging you to look at his.

You really, genuinely don't get it. It's not about intent. Intent or non intent is completely irrelevant. Or about him being disabled.

It's about him being male. And women and girls feeling uncomfortable based on that.

And will you still be taking him into the womens when he is 20?

I’ve got no idea, he’s not 20. He hasn’t hit puberty, he’s also 2 years old cognitively and you’d allow a 2 year old.

I understand that some women can’t make any exceptions for any males, of any sort. I do think it’s a shame that extends to disabled children who don’t know they're even in your space, but evidently it does. I had hoped that compassion extended that far, but it doesn’t and I can live with that.

I don’t take him into female toilets. He doesn’t use toilets and I wait. What I wouldn’t do was prevent him from accessing an activity because it didn’t suit you. If the only space to change him for that activity was SS, then I would still take him. Frankly I’d change him in the street if necessary, he wouldn’t be missing out for someone else’s benefit.

I can accept that it self serving, I’d question the parenting of anyone who would hold their kid back for someone else.

I said this yesterday, if someone can’t look at a disabled child and think “yeah I’ll allow that,” that’s not someone I want in my space, and certainly not someone’s opinion I’d take to heart.

GailBlancheViola · 25/04/2025 13:24

The prefix cis is derived from Latin and means “on this side of” or “on the same side as.
From the Britannica website.

And trans means 'on the opposite side of' ergo transwomen are on the opposite side of women ergo they are not women they are men.

However, women do not need the superfluous, unnecessary descriptor of 'cis', we are women no prefix required and I refuse point blank to tolerate the imposition of that term as a descriptor for me, I find it dismissive and offensive, I don't need it, want it nor did I ask for it. No-one asked me if I wanted it either and the answer to that, if I had been asked is a resounding NO.

Needspaceforlego · 25/04/2025 13:30

@SleeplessInWherever
I think a 8 yo is complete different and the time to stop taking him into ladies spaces will become apparent in time, and at that point you use disabled toilet or keep campaigning for more Changing Spaces for adults and older children.

However at the moment you are obviously a fairly fit young woman who doesn't feel threatened by males in your spaces, you might not feel the same as you get older.
And as I keep saying this fight isn't just over toilets it's everything from womans hospital wards to school changing rooms.
I wouldn't want to be plonked on a commode with a male on the other side of the curtain.

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 13:36

Needspaceforlego · 25/04/2025 13:30

@SleeplessInWherever
I think a 8 yo is complete different and the time to stop taking him into ladies spaces will become apparent in time, and at that point you use disabled toilet or keep campaigning for more Changing Spaces for adults and older children.

However at the moment you are obviously a fairly fit young woman who doesn't feel threatened by males in your spaces, you might not feel the same as you get older.
And as I keep saying this fight isn't just over toilets it's everything from womans hospital wards to school changing rooms.
I wouldn't want to be plonked on a commode with a male on the other side of the curtain.

I understand it’s about multiple spaces, it was changing rooms that sparked this particular conversation to begin with.

He’s still in pads, and has no sense of toileting - hence I don’t take him into toilets. No need, and I can wait. He is however changed by women everyday, including at school, and will be until he’s developed toilet skills (which may be never). He doesn’t and can’t give informed consent.

So the idea that there’s discomfort from women about him being in ‘their’ space just doesn’t wash with me.

Needspaceforlego · 25/04/2025 13:48

@SleeplessInWherever while he is a small boy nobody is really going to care.
But there will come a point in the not to distant future where its not appropriate.

People are also loathed to draw exceptions for one disabled child because the next disabled child could well be, ASD and completely inappropriate to have him in the ladies.

GarlicSmile · 25/04/2025 14:09

SleeplessInWherever · 25/04/2025 12:12

I’d love to tell you I have a sensible answer to that question. But the only one I have available is that I’m not intimidated by the fact men have penises.

I don’t need those spaces. You do. The sex class of “woman” don’t all need the same things.

Edited

In all my long years of ferociously campaigning, and donating to campaigns, for women's rights and freedoms, I have never found it necessary to share that I'm not particularly bothered by a mixed-sex changing room. I'm not. I've been naked in the same spaces as unfamiliar naked men, chatted to men while one of us is on the loo; I have very little 'shame' in this regard.

I've also been raped and sexually assaulted somewhat more than average - luckily for me, these were not extravagantly violent assaults, though I have experienced more violence than anyone should.

None of this informs my campaigning.
• I care very much, in a global sense, what happens to women because I'm a woman.
• Because I have a sense of justice and it is painfully clear that women are at multiple disadvantages compared to men.
• On the more individual level, I know that few traumatised people have access to the quality of therapy and other support I've had.
• I know I'm a naturally stubborn person but many other women are more timid or more acquiescent, so they need protections - and, actually, many men need the equivalent sex-based protections too.
• Philosophically, I am offended by ideologies that deny simple realities.
• On a personal level, I'm offended by efforts to persuade me that I'm the same as a man, that there's no need to distinguish the sexes.

Obviously, anybody's free not to give a shit. I could've taken a view that I don't care about a man in my space and it's not my problem if other women do. But I don't know why anyone would invest hours in telling other people about it or that they're wrong to care ... unless their real intention is to dispute the points above. That would be underhanded, to put it mildly.

lifeturnsonadime · 25/04/2025 14:11

Just for clarity there was a rather large dollop of sarcasm in my post saying I thought a trans woman would come on to apologise!

I'm just reading through the thread though and my goodness! He clearly only identifies as being conciliatory!

As much chance of that as of him being a woman or female.

Witchymadwoman · 25/04/2025 14:51

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/04/2025 11:33

"Cis" is not "just" a word for biological. It's the language of a belief system that assumes women can be other than biologically female and that biologically female people can be other than women and girls. If you don't believe that you don't need the word "cis", so in using it at all you are framing people according to your own prejudices.

So "Ciswoman" is not a "biological woman" in the gender critical sense of simply an adult human with a female body, it is a female person who shares some undefinable sense of unbodied, non-biological inner femaleness with male bodied "transwomen".

You may self define as a "ciswoman" who does indeed share that inner sense and that is absolutely your right.

However many, probably most, female bodied people do not recognise this feeling of having inner "female thinking" that isn't just the result of the cumulation of the experiences of living a female-embodied life. In fact, we consider that to be a regressive belief that grew out of outdated sexist stereotypes and disordered projections that people believe constrains what is "ok" for each sex to be and feel. To call women who understand themselves in this way "ciswomen" is reductive and offensive to them.

Redefining people in ways they do not recognise, enforcing your own framing of their lives and experiences over their own, telling them you know better than they do what it is to be them so they have no right to decide for themselves who they are absolutely is discrimination and oppression. HTH.

“Cis” is not anything to do with biology. It’s used in chemistry (and linguistically) to mean “this side of” as opposed to “trans”.

It’s used by trans activists to imply two types of women (cis and trans) which is why I object to it.

Witchymadwoman · 25/04/2025 14:56

Witchymadwoman · 25/04/2025 14:51

“Cis” is not anything to do with biology. It’s used in chemistry (and linguistically) to mean “this side of” as opposed to “trans”.

It’s used by trans activists to imply two types of women (cis and trans) which is why I object to it.

Sorry, to be more clear, it is used by trans activists to mean two equal or equivalent types of women (cis and trans), a structure which I reject.

Barbadosgirl · 25/04/2025 15:05

CervixSampler · 24/04/2025 23:13

“I’d rather be called rude than a fucking liar” as the great woman said.

Oh she was fantastic!

FlirtsWithRhinos · 25/04/2025 15:15

Witchymadwoman · 25/04/2025 14:51

“Cis” is not anything to do with biology. It’s used in chemistry (and linguistically) to mean “this side of” as opposed to “trans”.

It’s used by trans activists to imply two types of women (cis and trans) which is why I object to it.

Yeah, I was replying to a dumb-ass post that claimed "cis" meant "biological" so we should be happy with it. Lost the quote.

ohdearagain2 · 25/04/2025 15:22

I’m really pleased for you that you feel happy in your skin and that you know you want to live as a woman. But transwomen are transwomen … that is not the same as being a woman.

I can see completely why you don’t want to be referred to as a man - but it makes no sense to call transwomen women either.
You are a transwoman - are you not happy just being called a transwoman?

Also you do get some of the ‘other’ points of view in the debate but not all of them. You are not a woman because you don’t have the right chromosomes. It’s a bigger picture than you feel like your brain is a woman - your dna says otherwise.

I also don’t even get why the medical arguement is not a value in the trans community - if someone is a trans man but have retained their cervix - surely they want to be kept on the reviews for Pap smears?

or drs think about risk factors based on research on the what sex the person is - serious medical issues could be missed if a person is not registered under their biological sex

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