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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
MathildaJane · 24/04/2025 14:09

andtheworldrollson · 24/04/2025 13:55

OP came on here

insulted me
lecturered me
insulted me a bit more
then I stopped reading just in case I got really upset by the things they said about women

and you think I am being harsh?
by telling facts?

game theory - in repeated interactions be nice on the first go and then respond tit for tat after that

stupidity - be nice always

I think OP has decamped. They didn't engage with any of our points, spent most of their time complaining about the hideous cruelty of misgendering and how their unprovable gender identity makes them a woman. And oh, that they have an hourglass body, aren't much into sports, have a female brain, a ghost period and will make a great mother (the only thing missing is a tee-hee).

They chided me for treating them like a "rhetorical piece" not a person, mind you, for writing about them and their community in third person. There just weren't enough eiderdowns to save them from the pesky pea (women defending their sex based rights and rejecting OP's claim that they are a woman because they are a male who took female hormones).

OP, if you read this, Butler is wrong. "Acknowledging" that you are a woman or a type of female eliminates us as a category of humans distinct from men/males. If men can be men AND men can be women the term woman loses all meaning. We're not jealous or insecure. We just want to preserve our privacy, dignity and safety, and retain sex based protections. We have the right female-only facilities away from male people of any persuasion.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 14:11

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 13:34

This is awful, laying into someone who came to try and have a conversation and all anyone wants to do is pointless score and mock. Its shameful.

A conversation is a two way thing. Not just the OP explaining to women how we are wrong about what a woman is and that the OP really is one, and not listening to any of the responses explaining why we disagree.

bubblerabbit · 24/04/2025 14:13

What puzzles me is why it's always the brain that is female in men who claim to be women, and never any other organ.

How is it possible that XY brain cells can be somehow influenced to develop into a brain that is 'female' (whilst remaining XY) and yet this influence doesn't extend to any other cell in the body?

It's never 'a female bowel' (and there are measurable differences between the male and female digestive systems - the female bowel is longer, for starters, which is why women are more prone to constipation).

It's never a female heart, or kidneys, or spleen. No female pancreas. It never affects the gonads or genitals, either, does it. Funny that.

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 14:22

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 14:09

But we do "accuse" all men of presenting some sort of risk, because statistically they do, which is the biggest reason why we exclude them from female only spaces.

I also think that "because we want them" is a good enough reason for female only spaces to exist. Trans people are welcome to set up trans only spaces if they wish to, and I would respect that and not try to enter those spaces myself.

I don't believe the OP is responsible for the violent and criminal acts of the worst trans activists. But if you read the thread from beginning to end, what you see repeatedly is women saying, "no" and the OP not accepting that "no".

So the OP's posts on this thread and the actions of the rage and hate filled trans activists are both somewhere on the spectrum of "male person disagrees with female person's right to say no".

I actually think, genuinely, that initially OP was trying to explain why they’d like it to be a “yes.”

To be honest, early hours of this morning, I looked at the thread and thought “that’s a mistake.”

I think that by nature of being a trans woman who has an opinion which is heavily biased towards disagreeing with most here, they were onto a “loss” from the off. Which is a shame.

They were always going to get shot down in flames IMO. Anything other than saying they don’t belong here wouldn’t have been enough.

commonsense61 · 24/04/2025 14:25

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

Aizen · 24/04/2025 14:28

What was wrong with being called transvestite (the real truth of the matter IMV) anyway. Why the new word without the "vestite"?

PremiumD · 24/04/2025 14:37

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 08:07

Well, as much as you might not like it, it does happen.
But I get your skecptism, I didnt expect it either.

If there was a point where you went too far, being very generous, this was it.

Furtivenasturtium · 24/04/2025 14:41

bubblerabbit · 24/04/2025 14:13

What puzzles me is why it's always the brain that is female in men who claim to be women, and never any other organ.

How is it possible that XY brain cells can be somehow influenced to develop into a brain that is 'female' (whilst remaining XY) and yet this influence doesn't extend to any other cell in the body?

It's never 'a female bowel' (and there are measurable differences between the male and female digestive systems - the female bowel is longer, for starters, which is why women are more prone to constipation).

It's never a female heart, or kidneys, or spleen. No female pancreas. It never affects the gonads or genitals, either, does it. Funny that.

Yes, it's because people who claim.there are gendered brains want us to believe gender stereotypes such as those about abilities, characters or intelligence are determined by sex.

GailBlancheViola · 24/04/2025 14:53

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 14:22

I actually think, genuinely, that initially OP was trying to explain why they’d like it to be a “yes.”

To be honest, early hours of this morning, I looked at the thread and thought “that’s a mistake.”

I think that by nature of being a trans woman who has an opinion which is heavily biased towards disagreeing with most here, they were onto a “loss” from the off. Which is a shame.

They were always going to get shot down in flames IMO. Anything other than saying they don’t belong here wouldn’t have been enough.

I see nothing genuine at all. The OP may well have liked it to be a yes but will not accept that it is a NO and any of the reasons for that NO. Thankfully the Supreme Court did.

Time to respect women and the law.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 14:56

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 14:22

I actually think, genuinely, that initially OP was trying to explain why they’d like it to be a “yes.”

To be honest, early hours of this morning, I looked at the thread and thought “that’s a mistake.”

I think that by nature of being a trans woman who has an opinion which is heavily biased towards disagreeing with most here, they were onto a “loss” from the off. Which is a shame.

They were always going to get shot down in flames IMO. Anything other than saying they don’t belong here wouldn’t have been enough.

I think we all understand why they'd like the "no" to be a "yes".

But it just isn't.

And ultimately, saying that you want women to say "yes" because it makes you feel really hurt/sad/excluded when they say "no" is just emotional blackmail.

Nobody here is saying "no" because they hate trans people or lack empathy.

We are saying "no" because we believe that our rights and safety and feelings are equally important, and we're tired of being told that we have to put the needs of the opposite sex before our own.

That's why the Supreme Court judgment is such a huge thing for women.

For years we've been told that our "no" is transphobic and bigoted and that we'll be at risk of losing jobs/opportunities/friendships if we say it out loud. And then last week the highest court in the country confirmed that actually, our "no" is both reasonable and lawful.

Some people will still scream "bigot" at us, but the law is on our side.

What I'd like to see from people like the OP is an acknowledgement that for far too long they have been looking at this through the lens of their own personal experience and failing to consider the impact that their behaviour has had on women. I'd like people like the OP to accept the Supreme Court judgment and move on to creating their own spaces and their own terminology instead of appropriating ours.

wordler · 24/04/2025 15:02

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 10:15

I have been engaging with them for about 5 hours.
Im tired. Im Sorry.
Thank you for calling my boyfriend gay and saying it wasnt rude scarlet.
I really am done this time cause ima bout to COLLAPSE 😂

Love you all even if you hate me or whatever thing you come up with.
I suppose in conclusion id say about 30 percent of people engaged me in an okay spirit. But I do feel that at this point, conceding anything might actually turn out to be pointless and I get the feeling here nothing will ever be enough for some of you in the same way my boyfriend will never really be enough for the people who say he can never be british.

I hope that one day we (including me) can be better at this.
Much Love and Peace xxx

I hope you do come back - it’s been interesting reading your posts.

But I do hope you can come back and answer some questions more specifically.

Medical emergencies aside, I only want medical care from nurses and doctors who are biological women - specifically intimate care.

If you were a nurse or doctor would you believe you fit that category? Do you think it is okay for a trans woman like yourself who believes the transition has made you female to insist on treating me?

LameBorzoi · 24/04/2025 15:08

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 14:56

I think we all understand why they'd like the "no" to be a "yes".

But it just isn't.

And ultimately, saying that you want women to say "yes" because it makes you feel really hurt/sad/excluded when they say "no" is just emotional blackmail.

Nobody here is saying "no" because they hate trans people or lack empathy.

We are saying "no" because we believe that our rights and safety and feelings are equally important, and we're tired of being told that we have to put the needs of the opposite sex before our own.

That's why the Supreme Court judgment is such a huge thing for women.

For years we've been told that our "no" is transphobic and bigoted and that we'll be at risk of losing jobs/opportunities/friendships if we say it out loud. And then last week the highest court in the country confirmed that actually, our "no" is both reasonable and lawful.

Some people will still scream "bigot" at us, but the law is on our side.

What I'd like to see from people like the OP is an acknowledgement that for far too long they have been looking at this through the lens of their own personal experience and failing to consider the impact that their behaviour has had on women. I'd like people like the OP to accept the Supreme Court judgment and move on to creating their own spaces and their own terminology instead of appropriating ours.

Much of it was how important feeling feminine was to her, and how transpeople are at risk of so many terrible things - so far, so fair.

However, none of this gives male (sex) people the right to trample female safe spaces, and she just couldn't seem to see how that was an issue.

JohnnyRememberMe · 24/04/2025 15:11

You are a man.

You will never be a woman, a girl, or a mother.

Cope.

GarlicSmile · 24/04/2025 15:13

I actually think, genuinely, that initially OP was trying to explain why they’d like it to be a “yes.”

Yes - and, as the discussion lengthened, it began to feel more and more like that bloke from your friendship group who just couldn't quite seem to "understand" that you didn't want to shag him and kept trying to wear you down.

their own terminology instead of appropriating ours

I've got it! Yet another name we were given, unasked: this one by the Green Party, the LibDems and the WEP. Not-men! A label genuinely intended, indeed mandated for female people, by some of the highest authorities in the land.

There you go. A gift from us to you 😊 Trans-identified females can be Not-women, which seems to be all most of them wanted anyway 🎁

blueleavesgreensky · 24/04/2025 15:17

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:53

'I will advocate for you to not be discriminated against in all areas of life where you being a trans woman does not require women to make space for you; sports, bathrooms, policy positions relating to women, artistic or intellectual competitions.' Yeah I mean, do you see how the start conflicts with the end?

No. Because advocating for you not to be discriminated against as a trans woman in life isn’t the same as accepting you into women’s spaces any more than it is for me to not accept men into women’s spaces. It’s not discrimination to prevent men from entering women’s spaces. It’s not discrimination to prevent trans women from entering women’s spaces. Because neither of those groups are women.

you may have trans spaces or even trans women’s spaces and you may choose to not accept women or men from entering. That’s wouldn’t be discrimination either. Because it is accepted that we have spaces for dedicated groups. You just don’t belong in the women’s one.

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 15:18

StellaAndCrow · 24/04/2025 12:07

OP has been laughing about holocaust victims, whilst trying to use them as a gotcha.

Where did OP laugh about holocaust victims? Nowhere. She made a comment about the bookseller but nowhere has she mocked Holocaust victims.

NappyArgument · 24/04/2025 15:48

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 07:05

Ive already pointed out the maths behind this.
Really bad math due to sample size biases, they are taking roughly 30 million for both Men and Women then cutting that down to 48,000 for trans women people.
It would be better to use a small group of similar size for comparisons.
——————
Also to point out:
92 / 48,000 = 0.0019%
So it’s just them trying to present data in a biased way.

You keep saying it’s bad maths and I don’t understand why, I feel like you’re being willfully obtuse. Granted this data is slightly old now but:

'Of the 125 transgender prisoners counted by the prison service in 2017, 60 had been convicted of sexual offenses, including 27 convicted of rape (BBC News 2018). In the overall prison population, by comparison, 19% of males had been convicted of sexual crimes and only 4% of females (Ministry of Justice 2018b).

TimeForATerf · 24/04/2025 15:50

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 06:13

How would reddit help me start a conversation?
And how do your words help anyone?

I’m not here to help you! You need to help yourself first, but the community on Reddit will indulge you.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/04/2025 15:52

I expect OP is more than familiar with the Reddit community.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/04/2025 15:54

NappyArgument · 24/04/2025 15:48

You keep saying it’s bad maths and I don’t understand why, I feel like you’re being willfully obtuse. Granted this data is slightly old now but:

'Of the 125 transgender prisoners counted by the prison service in 2017, 60 had been convicted of sexual offenses, including 27 convicted of rape (BBC News 2018). In the overall prison population, by comparison, 19% of males had been convicted of sexual crimes and only 4% of females (Ministry of Justice 2018b).

And the female prison population itself is dwarfed by the male one.

JohnnyRememberMe · 24/04/2025 15:58

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 15:18

Where did OP laugh about holocaust victims? Nowhere. She made a comment about the bookseller but nowhere has she mocked Holocaust victims.

*He

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 16:05

JohnnyRememberMe · 24/04/2025 15:58

*He

Oh for god's sake, there's quite a few people on here who are just getting off on being nasty and it's totally unnecessary. Your point was wrong in the first place and then you compound it by that comment. Is it so hard to be polite?

JohnnyRememberMe · 24/04/2025 16:08

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 16:05

Oh for god's sake, there's quite a few people on here who are just getting off on being nasty and it's totally unnecessary. Your point was wrong in the first place and then you compound it by that comment. Is it so hard to be polite?

Where's the lie?

The OP is a transwoman, a man. It's not nasty to insist on reality.

slug · 24/04/2025 16:09

The "trans victims " of the holocaust. In speechmarks because it's unclear if they were all trans or even victims.

https://x.com/TwisterFilm/status/1768427557425234010

https://x.com/TwisterFilm/status/1768427557425234010

MyLostUsername · 24/04/2025 16:21

bubblerabbit · 24/04/2025 14:13

What puzzles me is why it's always the brain that is female in men who claim to be women, and never any other organ.

How is it possible that XY brain cells can be somehow influenced to develop into a brain that is 'female' (whilst remaining XY) and yet this influence doesn't extend to any other cell in the body?

It's never 'a female bowel' (and there are measurable differences between the male and female digestive systems - the female bowel is longer, for starters, which is why women are more prone to constipation).

It's never a female heart, or kidneys, or spleen. No female pancreas. It never affects the gonads or genitals, either, does it. Funny that.

Love this.
I was also curious to know whether the OP had actualy had a brain MRI, and what it looked like.

Also, even if there were significant differences between male and female brains and if brains of transidentified males were in fact closer to female brains, that might only explain why they feel they way they do, but it would not mean that they are the opposite 'gender'....

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