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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
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17
Astrabees · 24/04/2025 16:24

This thread has descended into vile petty bickering now. Not surprisingly the OP is long gone and the opportunity for measured discussion.

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 16:25

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn by MNHQ

Theeyeballsinthesky · 24/04/2025 16:32

But its not being polite is it? It’s lying.

consider the news coverage of Isla Bryson

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-64430756 The bbc uses she all the way through but just look at his using the entirely correct pronoun changes everything

"We were doing college work together and he was just getting too close for comfort for me," she said.
"I just felt like something was dead off and weird with him because he was desperate for me to be constantly talking to him."

Isla Bryson

Isla Bryson: Former classmate of trans rapist feels 'violated'

Isla Bryson applied fake tan to a fellow student who was unaware of the rape charges against her.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-64430756

OldSkuul · 24/04/2025 16:46

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:48

Thats actually quite easy.

'The evidence for gay people is that large numbers of people are out there having sexual relationships with members of the same sex.'

The evidence for trans people is that large numbers of people are out there tranistioning to members of the opposite sex.

Like the thing is the evidence exists on the same basis which is observing people acting. I think when you observe one and call it valid and ignore the other call it invalid thats really just personal bias.

Edited

Evidence/no-evidence is the wrong point.

With gay people, it's actually quite simple to define. A man who's sexually attracted to men is homosexual. If he's attracted to men and women, he's bisexual.

That's just what he is, objectively speaking. It's irrelevant how he might perceive himself (aka 'identify'), the objective truth is that he's homo/bi-sexual.

With a man wanting to be/trying to be/thinking he is a woman, there is just no usable definition. What exactly does it mean to 'feel like a woman'?

That's the difference between identity and sexuality.

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 16:48

OldSkuul · 24/04/2025 16:46

Evidence/no-evidence is the wrong point.

With gay people, it's actually quite simple to define. A man who's sexually attracted to men is homosexual. If he's attracted to men and women, he's bisexual.

That's just what he is, objectively speaking. It's irrelevant how he might perceive himself (aka 'identify'), the objective truth is that he's homo/bi-sexual.

With a man wanting to be/trying to be/thinking he is a woman, there is just no usable definition. What exactly does it mean to 'feel like a woman'?

That's the difference between identity and sexuality.

Feeling like a woman involves:

Having fun
Doing what we dare
Mens shirts
Short skirts
Dying our hair
Doing it in style

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 16:56

Theeyeballsinthesky · 24/04/2025 16:32

But its not being polite is it? It’s lying.

consider the news coverage of Isla Bryson

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-64430756 The bbc uses she all the way through but just look at his using the entirely correct pronoun changes everything

"We were doing college work together and he was just getting too close for comfort for me," she said.
"I just felt like something was dead off and weird with him because he was desperate for me to be constantly talking to him."

Yes just pick one person to make allllll your points about trans people. I keep seeing people say oh I'm not transphobic but you've got SC ruling and instead of just letting trans people get on with their lives in peace and being who they want to be there's all this blatant animosity. Why? There aren't marauding hordes of trans women waiting to accost you in the ladies, they've been using them for years with no problems. It's been set out where single sex spaces must be so that's that sorted. Why the need to be vile to people? I really don't get it.

BundleBoogie · 24/04/2025 16:57

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 16:05

Oh for god's sake, there's quite a few people on here who are just getting off on being nasty and it's totally unnecessary. Your point was wrong in the first place and then you compound it by that comment. Is it so hard to be polite?

It is not nasty to speak the truth. OP has asked something of women (to pretend that we agree he’s a woman depute the cost of doing so) and many women have said no.

We need to get away from the idea that correctly identifying a physical characteristic of someone is done to be nasty.

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 16:58

BundleBoogie · 24/04/2025 16:57

It is not nasty to speak the truth. OP has asked something of women (to pretend that we agree he’s a woman depute the cost of doing so) and many women have said no.

We need to get away from the idea that correctly identifying a physical characteristic of someone is done to be nasty.

You crack on then

AncientBallerina · 24/04/2025 17:03

Essentially no it’s too late and too far gone to start again. I probably would have tolerated transwomen like the OP in the past, but not in the current climate with the absolute refusal of so many to acknowledge the need to protect women and children from this insidious movement. It is incredible to see how little our safety and dignity is valued and respected. So many people have shown me who they are and I believe them, to paraphrase Maya Angelou!

andtheworldrollson · 24/04/2025 17:04

We make observations or specifics on one transperson and that’s no good
we give high level cross population statistics and that’s no good either

because yih don’t want to listen and you don’t want to admit you are wrong

there is no way of looking at a transwoman and seeing anything but a man and no justification for thinking any better ( or worse) if them than any other man

all men are men , sone good and some bad , and for reasons of inequality in society , society agrees that sometimes single sex spaces are a good idea

and I would actually prefer it if people were calling for no sex specific anything than this transgender “special case” because at least it would feel honest

BundleBoogie · 24/04/2025 17:06

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 16:58

You crack on then

Cool. Will do.

Out of interest, how do you decide which trans person you want to be ‘polite’ to and which you don’t? What are your boundaries on this? I’m guessing you have no issue with us being ‘rude’ about Isla Bryson (ie correctly referring to him as a man)?

commonsense61 · 24/04/2025 17:14

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

MathildaJane · 24/04/2025 17:21

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 16:56

Yes just pick one person to make allllll your points about trans people. I keep seeing people say oh I'm not transphobic but you've got SC ruling and instead of just letting trans people get on with their lives in peace and being who they want to be there's all this blatant animosity. Why? There aren't marauding hordes of trans women waiting to accost you in the ladies, they've been using them for years with no problems. It's been set out where single sex spaces must be so that's that sorted. Why the need to be vile to people? I really don't get it.

It hasn't been unproblematic. A man doesn't need to do anything apart when impinging on women's spaces, his presence is enough to intimidate and distress women. Sophie Molly and his mates did picket a ladies' toilet after the SC decision. Plenty of other MtFs have declared they will continue to flout the rules, women's concerns be damned.

These men are loud, obnoxious and nakedly entitled. They threaten women because know perfectly well what a woman is. They are belligerent towards women both on and offline, directing a barrage of the most vile sexual invective, death and rape threats at those who disagree. Even men who support women's rights have noticed the marked difference in the level of vitriol they direct at men versus women who dare to defy them.

All this when the mere suggestion of them using the gents is enough to make them wet themselves. They know women can't overpower them.

They are aggressive and can't repress their male behaviour such as territorial pissings or gratuitous toilet selfies to indicate "A trans woman used this and noone got hurt." 🙄 They do that as a provocation, to let women know they violated our boundaries. If they really cared about not being a nuisance they wouldn't keep rubbing it in our faces.

There's a long history of them assaulting and accosting women at women's rights gatherings (LWS events, don't always agree with KJK but I stand with her unequivocally in believing women are adult human females).

Narcissistic and sexually disordered men are massively overrepresented in their ranks. As much as your heart bleeds for them, a good lot won't p_ss on you if you were on fire. They can't comprehend anyone's struggle but their own. Typical male self centredness.

JohnnyRememberMe · 24/04/2025 17:24

This reply has been deleted

Withdrawn by MNHQ

I did not say that the OP was laughing at Holocaust victims. You're mistaken.

I did use 'he' to describe him, which you didn't like.

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 17:33

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn by MNHQ

JohnnyRememberMe · 24/04/2025 17:35

@KateKnows I repeat that I DID NOT accuse the OP of mocking Holocaust victims.

You owe me an apology.

commonsense61 · 24/04/2025 17:47

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

andtheworldrollson · 24/04/2025 17:48

But op wasn’t polite - she was abusive saying that there is a female brain - perpetuating a myth that has been used to harm women for centuries. OP was rude and insulting not polite at all.

btw saying “I’m being nice and polite “doesn’t make the insult any better

GailBlancheViola · 24/04/2025 17:59

Yes just pick one person to make allllll your points about trans people. I keep seeing people say oh I'm not transphobic but you've got SC ruling and instead of just letting trans people get on with their lives in peace and being who they want to be there's all this blatant animosity. Why? There aren't marauding hordes of trans women waiting to accost you in the ladies, they've been using them for years with no problems. It's been set out where single sex spaces must be so that's that sorted. Why the need to be vile to people? I really don't get it.

Yes we have got the SC ruling, which clarified that transwomen do not have and never have had the right to avail themselves of women's spaces and services. Trans people need to accept and adhere to the ruling and then we can all get on with living our lives in peace.

The OP, however, does not accept the ruling (and indicates they will not abide by it) and is just throwing out all manner of excuses and emotional manipulation to justify why they personally should not be subject to the law and why women should not expect them to.

AmateurNoun · 24/04/2025 18:01

Astrabees · 24/04/2025 16:24

This thread has descended into vile petty bickering now. Not surprisingly the OP is long gone and the opportunity for measured discussion.

There was never truly an opportunity for measured discussion with OP saying that he has a female brain and that the female sex class do not deserve their own terminology, rights and spaces.

OP came here to tell us that he has or should have a right to use women's spaces because he is "making an effort" and we should let him do so in the spirit of compromise. But the OP is male and thank goodness we have the SC judgment now to clarify that women's spaces are for women.

It's a bit rich these transwomen suddenly suggesting a compromise after FWS's victory. You can bet there would be no suggestion of compromise or conciliation if the result had been different.

And as always, the so-called compromise is "let me do what I want and go in women's spaces, you must not call me a man and you must do what I say". I am so over this.

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 18:02

andtheworldrollson · 24/04/2025 17:48

But op wasn’t polite - she was abusive saying that there is a female brain - perpetuating a myth that has been used to harm women for centuries. OP was rude and insulting not polite at all.

btw saying “I’m being nice and polite “doesn’t make the insult any better

A (very) quick look on the internet has told me that there have been studies that showed a difference in the size, make up and neurological transmissions between male and female brains.

I’ll be honest, I haven’t read those studies or any of the counter studies. Mainly because I can’t currently be bothered. But I’d imagine the set that have scanned brains and seen differences aren’t making it up.

However, what I will say; is if there are differences, they’ll be biological and therefore sex based, I can’t see how you’d be born with a female brain in a biologically male body, and as it develops it will have likely been affected by hormones that either sex does/doesn’t have.

I don’t however think it’s abusive to have just gotten it potentially wrong, you can disagree with the “brain” point (or any point) without making it heated, surely.

andtheworldrollson · 24/04/2025 18:23

It’s abusive because the “female brain” is what has been used to put women down, to downplay their intelligence , the source of female hysteria.

Girls can’t do maths. Women don’t have the intelligence to vote. Don’t trouble your little brain over that.

yes my brain has female dna in every cell and the weight of my brain is in line with the size of my body.
but it’s functional features - the amount of connections and the way it works - you can’t distinguish male from female

so it’s a lie and supports the rubbish that the female gender is something in how your brain works. it’s a lie that has been used to hurt women.

and I am too old to see “female brain “ as anything other than evil showing its face

Molto · 24/04/2025 18:25

The fact that the OP read @SpidersAreShitheads's "We've been told repeatedly that trans women are 'better women' than us" and responded [sic] "Its suprises me so much to hear you say I think Im a better woman than you are" would strongly suggest this was a troll if it wasn't such predictable, repetitive behaviour from TiMs on here.

"Look, I'm being nice I mean, I haven't said anything nice, or paused to listen to you, or agreed with your points, or considered the purpose of safeguarding, or admitted I came to the board with an incomplete or incorrect idea, or stopped comparing women to Nazis, or stopped insisting over and over again that I AM a woman despite you all patiently and calmly explaining why you find that offensive and incompatible with protections for girls and women, OR stopped telling you all that actually women definitely have lady brains, and frequently violently threaten and attack en masse trans people trying to have meetings and also use threats of sexual violence on public placards because they definitely do NO WAIT DON'T LOOK AT THOSE STATS AND SCIENCE THEY'RE WRONG (for some reason) -- so yeah, this is great dialogue? We all agree you are all wrong and I'm right or you're just hysterical bullies? Great stuff."

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 18:29

andtheworldrollson · 24/04/2025 18:23

It’s abusive because the “female brain” is what has been used to put women down, to downplay their intelligence , the source of female hysteria.

Girls can’t do maths. Women don’t have the intelligence to vote. Don’t trouble your little brain over that.

yes my brain has female dna in every cell and the weight of my brain is in line with the size of my body.
but it’s functional features - the amount of connections and the way it works - you can’t distinguish male from female

so it’s a lie and supports the rubbish that the female gender is something in how your brain works. it’s a lie that has been used to hurt women.

and I am too old to see “female brain “ as anything other than evil showing its face

I don’t know, there are people far smarter than I am that have said there are functional differences.

But kindly, I’m backing you up here. If there are functional differences in a male brain, they’re biological, which we all agree is fact based and can’t just be implanted in the female body. So OP having a female brain isn’t a possibility if it’s in a male body.

That would be like OP having a female uterus in a male body. Right?

I actually fall into the “trans women don’t bother me” camp, so if I can see that biological brain differences may be a thing, but they still don’t back up a gender ideology, I think most people probably can too.

GailBlancheViola · 24/04/2025 18:31

andtheworldrollson · 24/04/2025 18:23

It’s abusive because the “female brain” is what has been used to put women down, to downplay their intelligence , the source of female hysteria.

Girls can’t do maths. Women don’t have the intelligence to vote. Don’t trouble your little brain over that.

yes my brain has female dna in every cell and the weight of my brain is in line with the size of my body.
but it’s functional features - the amount of connections and the way it works - you can’t distinguish male from female

so it’s a lie and supports the rubbish that the female gender is something in how your brain works. it’s a lie that has been used to hurt women.

and I am too old to see “female brain “ as anything other than evil showing its face

Wholeheartedly agree.

As for this utter tosh from the opening post:

because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth.

it absolutely backs up exactly what you said in your post.

The 'female brain' concept being used here is regressive, misogynistic bullshit.

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