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Feminism: chat

Conciliatory Conversation On gender

1000 replies

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 02:43

Hello!

In the last few months I have been reflecting on the transgender and feminism debate and I feel I've got a few things to share with you on it from a perspective perhaps you wont maybe often hear.

To preface and explain, I am a transgender woman/female and I'm writing here today not to create any kind of argument or discord but because I am here to say that I think there are things that my side of the floor has gotten wrong.

I want to start from a position of saying that I can understand why some of you feel erased or afraid. I dont say that in a patronising way; I say that from a position of being fully periceved as female in society and I often to feel quite vunerable because of that in certain situations just like I imagine many of you do aswell.

I started down this road from hearing about how a 'A woman is person who says they are a woman'. I must admit I never quite got it. It makes no sense but yet, there are many transgender people and allies who say this like it has any kind of meaning. Just like when they also say that 'woman' is defined by a certain set of catagories etc. Its always bothered me and I didnt know why. For me, the more I have medically tranisitioned to female, the more Ive began to understand the word and defintion of female cannot be just removed from the term woman.

Now, I suspect this is where most of you reading this will be in decent agreement of. However I suspect what I say next will cause more issues. I believe myself to be female not just because of my physical aspect having been changed through medical transition (albeit its not a perfect process) but also because I believe my brain structure to have formed female in the sex differences between male and female likely at birth. There are quite numerous studies that do back this up to an okay but emerging degree and I am also aware that there also a few that dont say that exactly but say my brain formed in a kind of third way. Either way, I think it is clear from these studies that my brain developed differently to that of a male and it has manifested itself so I am quite closely alligned with being female.

To me, I feel like this makes a me kind of intersex person but perhaps in a different kind of way than we usually think of the term intersex. Though, through my medical transition obviously estrogen has, at least for me, solidified my mind to that much more towards female.

With this in mind, I find myself looking at the world as a woman but a woman who came with unique challenges and hurdles that are difficult to explain. For example, often I have been accused of saying its wrong that GRS gives me a vagina and have often been shouted at and saying im just sexualising it. However for me, the vagina isnt and wasnt the main source of my distress. The main source of my distress is that I will never have ovaries and will never have children and be a biological mother. I have never been interested in having a child as a male in anyway.

For me, it reminds me that I am not just a straight forward female and many will not accept me. After some deep reflection I think that I have also accepted that I will have to go through hurdles and I will have to remove my male form in such a succfient manner that I can be accepted by other women in certain areas. With that in mind I have also come to accept that self indentifcation shouldnlt be accepted. That tears at me because I wish I lived in that ideal world. But, as a woman who is only attracted to men, I understand frankly just how dangerous some of them can be. But ive come to the conclusion that if we keep pushing for this we are only making it harder for everyone and it will only lead to further division, more toxicity and we will just tear oursevles apart.

I do look at my rights from five years ago and I look at them now and see how they have reduced from prisons putting people such as as me in mens prisions, to the recent SC ruling, sports associations banning us. I do truly think that most women do and have historically accepted women like me but I also understand that came with agreements and understandings. Understandings which I think have been overstepped in the last ten years.

While I dont and will never accept calling me a man; I can understand why some of you that are reading this may have gotten fed up and stopped caring. I suppose what I am really trying to say is, can we all start again? If I can accept that women (including myself) need protections in some areas and I can accept the need for medicalising, the dropping of self identification, the need for due process in changing your sex legally can you accept that Im not a man? Can you accept that calling me certain things and the misgendering, using terms such as Trans identified Male is actually causing more harm than it is good?

Can we not as women actually just get our heads together and work out a decent solution? I do believe we might remain with some differences. For example I do believe a woman is a person who was born with a female gender identity by which I mean the overall average structure of the brain and therefore mind. And I do understand you will use a defintion to be defined by your anatomy. But I do believe that actually both of these can be true. While I cant be 100 percent true to your defintion I have tried to be because of where my defintion has led me and I understand how difficult that may be for someone who has all the correct anatomy to understand. But I have tried to understand how you feel so I am trying to ask for the same.

Finally, thank you for reading my long message. I am very nervous to be leaving it. Please can I ask you from refraining to calling me names and refering to me as a man, this is a request and not a demand. I have very much put myself out there with this and I hope that what is reflected back to me is the same spirit in which I wrote this.

Thank you

P.s I hovered over the 'Post' button for about five minutes before clicking it.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
17
allthedragons · 24/04/2025 13:18

I couldn't get past page 2. You're patronising, ill-informed and delusional.

Amazingly, talking down to actual women doesn't help align them with your Gentleman Brain's self-serving observations.

How about turning your attentions to the trans activists who have utterly destroyed what little empathy so many of us once had?

Hotfeetcoldfeet · 24/04/2025 13:20

I feel like an elite athlete sometimes and really really want to be one. I think I’d be a fantastic elite athlete. Sometimes I think like an elite athlete. Maybe my brain is developing like an elite athlete’s? I would never say this out loud as in reality, I’m bang average at sport. I’ll cope with this dissonance and I’m not deluded enough to think that I should be in the olympics, even though I might day dream about it. Same way that you are not a woman and never will be. Sometimes you just got to accept things that you can’t change and stop lying to yourself and others.

HereForTheFreeLunch · 24/04/2025 13:24

The fact that OP cannot imagine for even a nanosecond that OP may be wrong and the pesky women here may be right is the classic example of mansplaining - and proof that OP has a very much male brain - similar to every average garden variety misogynistic.

Sorry OP - you can dress however you like, have whatever medical things you can get - I hope it gives you peace - but it doesn't change your DNA.

(And this is my female socialization- apologising to you when I know I am right and you will not like what I say)

Tophelleborine · 24/04/2025 13:25

GarlicSmile · 24/04/2025 09:05

A digression of sorts: Gender identity. What the fuck is it?

I've read reams about it, watched videos, and still no-one's defined it. Feeling like your mind / soul / inner self is misaligned with your gender (most common claim) is nonsense because nobody feels fully aligned with sex-role stereotypes. I'd be surprised if even half of people feel aligned with half of the stereotypes for their sex.

Feeling misaligned with the sex of your body I can envisage a little better, mainly because I had dysmorphic anorexia in my teens - but I've been told off for trying to compare gender dysphoria with a delusional state, so let's stick with sex. I can't say I feel aligned with having a female body, it just is what it is. I don't go around feeling great about being a woman. On good days I feel great about being a person.

My female body's done me no favours: I underwent huge personality shifts during puberty and menopause, had absolute bastard periods with unpredictable flooding in public, miscarried six times and menopause dragged on for 12 years. I am not a 'feminine' person and, while I'm not 'masculine' either, my sturdy build means I look like Grayson Perry if I wear frills.

None of this is my identity. I'm not keen on the 21st-century obsession with identity, actually. Self-knowledge is a rare and valuable thing, but it is not self-definition. That strikes me as limiting, like sticking yourself in a box and slapping a label on it. Why restrict your own horizons? Anyway ...

Back to my sturdy build 😳 I'm 5'8", quite tall for an English woman of my generation; I've often felt envious of petite women, especially delicate little women who unconsciously bring out the protective instinct in others (including me!) People look to tall, rectangular individuals like me for help, not to be helped. I'd quite like a break from this but there's no changing my body type.

My height and bone structure are, like my sex, simply facts. They're very significant aspects of who & what I am, but I didn't choose them - and I can't choose to change them. I mean, I could "identify as" petite, but where the hell would that get me? All the short women would be furious if I managed to get petite clothing ranges made in my size, and I still wouldn't be able to look appealingly up at people unless I crouched down to do it ...

As it goes, I'm 100% sure MOST people don't have an identity, gender or otherwise, in the way this seems to be meant. My name, sex, age, height, skin colour, nationality, etc are distinct features of my 'identity' as it is meant on official forms. They identify me but they don't define me.

So I have no fucking idea what people are on about with their goddamn identities. Anyone care to explain? OP??

Omg I know exactly what you mean about being tall and rectangular, and the assumptions people make about your strength and capability based on that. I used to yearn so much to be dainty and "feminine" and have pretty little hands and feet and get looked after sometimes. Less so these days as I'm middle aged and don't give a shit any more.

SquirrelSoShiny · 24/04/2025 13:25

allthedragons · 24/04/2025 13:18

I couldn't get past page 2. You're patronising, ill-informed and delusional.

Amazingly, talking down to actual women doesn't help align them with your Gentleman Brain's self-serving observations.

How about turning your attentions to the trans activists who have utterly destroyed what little empathy so many of us once had?

This sums it up really well to be honest. Editing to repeat what the OP ignored earlier. We were the original allies and then we were shat upon. So I'm going to stand back and keep protecting women.

Furtivenasturtium · 24/04/2025 13:27

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 11:00

Looking at their penis and thinking, "that's wrong" is not an experience any woman has ever had. Because women don't have penises. That is a uniquely male experience. I can empathise with someone who has that feeling, but I cannot identify with it or relate to it, because I do not know what it feels like to have a penis.

Even if "not having sex dysphoria" could be described as an identity, which I dispute, in what way does a male person with sex dysphoria share the same identity as a female person without sex dysphoria?

There's not even the most cursory attempt to describe the features of this gender identity that we all supposedly share.

It really just boils down to, "I should be entitled to use these words and spaces, because of how I feel".

Edited

OP did list some traits. The traits OP sees as inherently female, with a biological basis in a "female brain" are beimg conciliatory and being nurturing.

All women I know would explode with laughter or with anger at that. It's outrageous.

It does make me wonder, OP, if you had negative experiences of males when you were young, or experiences where only females were conciliatory of nurturing, and this made you believe that those characteristics are stronger in one sex than in the other?

Hellothere89 · 24/04/2025 13:28

@FairAdvocate I appreciate the sentiment of wanting to reconcile but I think that’s insulting to women who have been subject to SA. We are far beyond that, which is why we need the law to intervene. How law does that seems to be where we disagree.

I understand that, ultimately, trans women don’t like the legal definition of the word woman - that is what has sparked this whole debate. I’d really like to understand what approach you think the law should take? How you would legally define a woman? Because if it includes anyone who feels like they are a woman / because they think they have a female brain then that is completely subjective and cannot be (as you seem to recognise) proven as a matter of fact. It then means it can be invoked by anyone. If that is the case, the whole distinction between men and women becomes pointless because anyone can be whatever they feel. Who then is the law protecting? No one!

The answer isn’t for trans women to join our camp. Because in doing so, the definition of a woman becomes so stretched it becomes meaningless. The answer seems to be for trans women to leave our rights alone, and to focus on their own.

I’m not for one second saying that this means women are more important than trans women, because we’re not. We’re equal, but we’re different - and there has to be some recognition of that in order for us all to be protected.

Nightingalenight · 24/04/2025 13:32

If you look at the thread title OP really hasn’t been conciliatory, it’s not been much of a conversation and OP wants to talk about gender and we are talking about sex.

If we were all in a pub I think we’d have turned our backs on the rude man who’d muscled in on our gathering with some ‘look at me’ statement. The man himself would then go off blaming us loudly for not giving him what he wants (I dunno, validation, an argument, a shag? Who knows what men really want? Not me!) OP seems to have disappeared, exhausted, as I think he said up thread.

Not as exhausted as we are.

And just like with attention-seeking children we’ve been drawn in to giving one individual man a great deal of attention. Maybe he is special after all! But it’s been a useful exercise (once again) in expressing how we’re feeling about this whole mess. So thanks for that, OP.

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 13:34

This is awful, laying into someone who came to try and have a conversation and all anyone wants to do is pointless score and mock. Its shameful.

SquirrelSoShiny · 24/04/2025 13:36

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 13:34

This is awful, laying into someone who came to try and have a conversation and all anyone wants to do is pointless score and mock. Its shameful.

Do you actually believe what you've just written or are you just really uninformed? Go give your head a wobble and maybe read up on this issue 🙄

FiveBarGate · 24/04/2025 13:38

Thanks for your post.

I think this has become so polarised because the umbrella of 'trans' has become too wide.

I think the motivations behind transition are very different. At the most extreme of the opposites you have AGP 50plus year old men and at the other confused 13 year old girls who are autistic.

The advice, support, societal acceptance for these people is very different. By forcing them all together it has allowed the TRAs to push the agenda and move it entirely to their needs at the expense both of women and other trans people.

I am comfortable generally in the company of men. But that doesn't give me the right to decide for other women. And this is another place a lot of the Trans supporters fall down. You are fine with it, good for you but it doesn't mean everyone else has to be forced to be fine with it.

I have no problem accepting you are a trans woman but I feel that is acceptance of your journey and how you wish to be recognised. It does not compel me to say you are a biological woman and can compete in women's sport for example. On the other hand, I'd not call you a man either, I was perfectly happy with transwoman before it was forced upon me as the default and I had to become cis.

Similarly if there are three walking groups, one for women, one for mixed and one for men, I'd wonder why you felt the need to join the women's one but I'd happily walk along side you in the mixed one and treat you as I find you, so in essence as a woman (though in this context I don't think sex plays any real role). If you insisted on coming to the all female group which mostly is a place to offload about menopause and heavy bleeding, I'd feel you'd infringed my safe space (even though I'm sure you would be perfectly nice but it's not information I'd disclose out with that environment).

As I said on another thread, I do not generally fear men. But I do fear those who try trample on my boundaries. If I met one for a date and they pushed too far, I'd be out of there as it's simply not worth the risk. They are an immediate red flag in a way others aren't - and I think that's where the current group of TRAs sit.

They have pushed to the point we have become fearful and we are entitled to that fear because it's based on genuine risk.

Annoyedone · 24/04/2025 13:39

KateKnows · 24/04/2025 13:34

This is awful, laying into someone who came to try and have a conversation and all anyone wants to do is pointless score and mock. Its shameful.

The OP did not want a conversation. He wanted to lecture women on why they were wrong to fight for their rights and why he should be allowed to access women’s spaces despite not being a woman.

MathildaJane · 24/04/2025 13:39

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 13:16

They are. I’m sure some people like said ginger chap, I happen to not be one of them.

I personally see accusing all ginger men (at this point I’m just following the analogy) as a risk as equally as unjust as assuming that all men are a risk, or that all trans women are because some behave poorly. I see that the same way as suggesting all Muslims are terrorists.

I don’t know how we guess which ones are a risk, but assuming that they all are just isn’t an idea I can get behind.

The first few pages (I was genuinely reading along from around 4 this morning) seemed to me that OP was just trying to have a discussion and present the trans “side.” Later on this morning every time I looked a new page had been added, and it seemed to have spiralled.

One side of that conversation was about how some trans women behave and how that’s shaped the response to them from some women. The issue for me is that I don’t believe that’s OP’s responsibility unless she’s the one doing it. I’m not responsible for all women either, for example.

(I would make clear that the only reason I’ve replied to you specifically is that yours was the post directly beneath mine answering me!)

What we've mentioned over and over is that female safeguarding is based on the combination of two factors - 1. our vulnerability to male predation and 2. the male propensity for violence.

People have repeatedly provided stats to evidence this conclusion. You're missing the woods for the trees. By your logic, women's single sex spaces should be dismantled as their continued existence carries the implication that all men (males) are potential threats or rapists. Yes. That IS the assumption. We can't tell the bad ones from the good by sight. What we know is ~98% of sex crimes are committed by males, ~90% of their adult victims are female.

You're going off on a tangent bringing up racial stereotypes. Yes, it's objectionable to call all Muslim men terrorists. Noone is claiming trans id males are more likely to assault women than any other men (though a prisons stats tell an inconvenient story). Mixed sex spaces (allowing trans id men in makes women's spaces effectively gender neutral) have been demonstrated to be more dangerous (than female-only) for women, exposing them to the risk of being recorded through hidden cameras, voyeurism, encountering fetishistic men who gets off on women's unwitting and non-consensual participation, and, of course, assault and intimidation. The prevalence of both sexual and personality disorders among trans id men is well documented. Paraphilias tend to escalate as well as cluster.

We are saying that trans "women" are ultimately male and deserve no special concessions or access to female spaces, spaces which are segregated by sex to ensure women's safety, dignity and privacy. What part of this sounds prejudicial to you?

bubblerabbit · 24/04/2025 13:40

Astrabees · 24/04/2025 11:57

I’m so saddened by the hostility and unpleasantness directed towards the OP on what is a very considered and moderate post. I’m just a normal older woman who has her own views on this issue.
We had trans women years ago. They tended to go to Casablanca for reassignment surgery and there were very few of them, the only two I had heard of were April Ashley and Tula (?) the model. Later on there was Jan Morris. I followed the writing of Diana Weston(?-I’m bad at names) in The Guardian,and hoped all would go well for her. I think the point is that these trans women were accepted because they had had full surgery and whatever the ideology was as far as zI was concerned I was happy to fully accept them as women from a practical point of view.
Fast forward a bit and we had people with penises and beards who wanted me to accept they were women, and who proved they were not by their attitude to sport, rape crisis centres etc. That is where the need to take a firm stand comes from, you cannot be accepted as associate woman if you have a penis, full stop.
I understand the mindset point the OP makes, how you live forms your thought processes -retirement has taught me that.
So, I have a lot of sympathy for the points the OP makes. If this issue is not resolved there will soon be a case where some vulnerable trans woman who in no way looks like a man ends up in a male jail with tragic results. Just imagine this was someone like the poor Brianna girl who was murdered.
Once again it is a certain type of strident aggressive male who is causing the problem here and while that is now being firmly stopped (I hope) I want there to be respect for people in O P’s situation and some constructive support, rather than this unpleasant gloating.

Men who aren't pretending to be women are also killed in male prisons by other men.

Should these men also be moved to the female estate?

pontefractals · 24/04/2025 13:40

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:40

Um yeah, thats alot for me to reply to me.
'A digression of sorts: Gender identity. What the fuck is it?'
Theres actually quite alot of studies on it actually. I spoke to someone at length about it who had a degree in psychology specialsing in this area.
I wish I had him present now but he went through so much of it with me and I was suprised just how vast it was actually.

'I've read reams about it, watched videos, and still no-one's defined it. Feeling like your mind / soul / inner self is misaligned with your gender (most common claim) is nonsense because nobody feels fully aligned with sex-role stereotypes. I'd be surprised if even half of people feel aligned with half of the stereotypes for their sex.'
I think the real problem is that there is no absolute answer in a way. I mean, I think that there is but I dont think we have found it yet. But you know, we havent found it for gay people either but we still accept them and believe them you know?
I will say for me, its not a stereotype. Its hard for me to explain because well, you feel female because you are one. For me, I am one because something in my brain indicates to me that I am one. Like for example, Ive always held myself to female beauty standards. Not out of expression but out of default. Why that is I wish I could answer I really do. When I looked at my penis I knew it was wrong. Why? 'Because I am a female'. I cant explain it more than that because thats kind of the core thought.

' I can't say I feel aligned with having a female body, it just is what it is. I don't go around feeling great about being a woman. On good days I feel great about being a person.' I think I see this differently. I feel alligned with my female body because I know what its like for that to be gone. I do feel good about being a woman and I appricaite it so much because I know what it feels like when thats gone. I know the feeling of deadness that happens and I never miss a moment and will never miss a moment.

'My female body's done me no favours: I underwent huge personality shifts during puberty and menopause, had absolute bastard periods with unpredictable flooding in public, miscarried six times and menopause dragged on for 12 years.' Jesus, Im sorry. Thats shit. Genuinely.
Im starting to realise that im probably one of the youngest people in this thread.

'None of this is my identity. I'm not keen on the 21st-century obsession with identity, actually. I do understand that feeling but I think you can afford to ignore your identity abit when youve not gone through what ive gone through with it.

'My height and bone structure are, like my sex, simply facts. They're very significant aspects of who & what I am, but I didn't choose them - and I can't choose to change them.' I think that bone structure can be complicated as youve just mentioned. For example I actually have very wide hips. My body shape is an 'hourglass' shape and doesnt really look very male at all. Though I think you can shape for example had you developed a full male beard and body hair on par with a man you would probably find it harder to see yourself as a woman. I think again, it comes down to never really having to think about it too much.

'As it goes, I'm 100% sure MOST people don't have an identity, gender or otherwise, in the way this seems to be meant. My name, sex, age, height, skin colour, nationality, etc are distinct features of my 'identity' as it is meant on official forms. They identify me but they don't define me.'

I think that everyone has an identity. I think that its just some people have to think about it more than others. I think when you are trans you actually are forced to think about it in quite a hard way and I dont think you can just ignore it. I think again, if you started looking like a man and your body and sex chararistics started to reflect that youd also think about it much more because it would cause you distress. I think that ultimately where most people line up a small amount of us just dont.

Apologies for the less good reply, I have been doing this hours and im flagging.

You mention that you think you might be one of the youngest people on this thread. Would you mind giving us a rough idea of your age, say to the nearest round number? I'm trying to think at what point I started to look outside myself more than inside.
I would also like to mention that when I had breast cancer I lost all my hair, including lashes and brows, suffered lasting disfigurement from surgery, and faced losing at least one breast. None of that made me feel less like a woman, because that is impossible. Even having a hysterectomy, oopherectomy and bilateral salpingectomy after decades of flooding and pain didn't make me feel less like a woman (though I was surprisingly sad about the definite end of my unused fertility).
That is because I was born female, and survived, and therefore I am and always will be a woman, whatever is done to me.

EastCoastDweller · 24/04/2025 13:44

Ereshkigalangcleg · 24/04/2025 09:58

For anyone earnestly engaging and hoping for some insight/empathy, you’re going to be disappointed right up to the end of the thread.

Thanks for the heads up.

The thread seems to encapsulate all the arguments and issues that have led to the SC judgements. I think it should go to classics. Both to preserve the history and so we can refer any future enquiries as to why we can’t roll the clock and spend our time doing something else. Can anyone tell me how to recommend it goes to classics?

AcquadiP · 24/04/2025 13:44

"Can we not as women"

You are not a woman.

Aizen · 24/04/2025 13:47

@FiveBarGate Yes, they have pushed FAR too hard, you are right. So we are pushing back now.

PollyPaintsFlowers · 24/04/2025 13:48

No. I'm I am not going along with a delusion. I bear you no personal ill will, but no, I am not going to affirm you

VaddaABeetch · 24/04/2025 13:49

You’ve used an awful lot of words to say Do as I tell you.

Karatema · 24/04/2025 13:51

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 03:43

Its fine for you to have this opinion. But I have been through too much and learned too much about myself to think otherwise and I think I layed it out clearly in a way I hope made sense to everyone in a reasonable way.

Your reply proves her point; yet another man telling us women we are wrong!

FiveBarGate · 24/04/2025 13:54

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 04:50

I actually agree with this.
However I do also think we cant lose sight of the fact that we are also dealing with a statisically and significantly marginilised group of people. While I do admit I avoid the worst of this due to my genetics and endocrine system being fortunate we cant lose sight of the fact that there are people who very much only do this out of predjudice.
This is why I wanted to talk more openly about and try to bring some walls down. Both sides are so caught in such a defensive stance I think its only going to end up benefiting the worst kinds of people in the end if it hasnt already.

I think with sport is complicated. Ive honestly read many of studies and often leave myself feeling more confused than when I go into it. The results are often conflicting and I think really we should just do things on a case by case basis like we do with intersex people. I think that having a default state of 'males are better' is just damaging though. I also think that we need to address that some sports are gendered and its just silly and demeaning to all women. Chess for example. Pool is another one. Darts. I think with Chess all we are admitting there is that men are smarter than us for X reason and that needs to stop.

But honestly, Im bad at sports. I dont play them or watch them and I leave that up to my boyfriend and thats often why I try not to talk about it when it relates to transgender people.

But I can't agree with you on this.

Darts being used as an example infuriated me.

As you have lived as a woman, I'd expect you to have some understanding of the role of social influences as well as biological ones. How comfortable would you feel walking into a pub on your own and having a throw of darts or turning up to a snooker hall? Things might be improving but they are not there yet.

There's one women's team in our local darts league which means travelling much further to play than men have to do.

The bull is 173cm from the floor because of the average height of a man

In snooker men's arm span is much wider. Before we even get into proven differences in hand eye coordination.

If the trans darts player wants to present as a transwoman in the men's competition I don't care. That's just clothing and hair. Can't be more out there than anything Peter Wright does.

andtheworldrollson · 24/04/2025 13:55

OP came on here

insulted me
lecturered me
insulted me a bit more
then I stopped reading just in case I got really upset by the things they said about women

and you think I am being harsh?
by telling facts?

game theory - in repeated interactions be nice on the first go and then respond tit for tat after that

stupidity - be nice always

BundleBoogie · 24/04/2025 14:03

FairAdvocate · 24/04/2025 09:43

'They parrot the preposterous Butlerian line that expanding our definitions to accommodate trans "women" doesn't make us any less female.'

It doesnt. And again ive tried to make this a discussion that avoids terms like Trans Identified men and youve said this several times so I dont really think youre in keeping with the spirit honestly.

Actually Mathilda’s comment is very much in keeping with the feminism board and common views on the absolute nonsense churned out by Judith Butler but thanks for the mansplain.

You really have no idea what being a woman means - nobody born male possibly can. Your brain is no more female than any other vital organ you have and you seem to think you might have been born in the wrong body but that’s also not possible.

Sorry if you are disappointed with your lot in life but that’s the way it goes unfortunately. Fwiw the tone of all of your posts sounds utterly male but you shouldn’t feel hampered in life because you don’t fit typical male stereotypes. That is regressive.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/04/2025 14:09

SleeplessInWherever · 24/04/2025 13:16

They are. I’m sure some people like said ginger chap, I happen to not be one of them.

I personally see accusing all ginger men (at this point I’m just following the analogy) as a risk as equally as unjust as assuming that all men are a risk, or that all trans women are because some behave poorly. I see that the same way as suggesting all Muslims are terrorists.

I don’t know how we guess which ones are a risk, but assuming that they all are just isn’t an idea I can get behind.

The first few pages (I was genuinely reading along from around 4 this morning) seemed to me that OP was just trying to have a discussion and present the trans “side.” Later on this morning every time I looked a new page had been added, and it seemed to have spiralled.

One side of that conversation was about how some trans women behave and how that’s shaped the response to them from some women. The issue for me is that I don’t believe that’s OP’s responsibility unless she’s the one doing it. I’m not responsible for all women either, for example.

(I would make clear that the only reason I’ve replied to you specifically is that yours was the post directly beneath mine answering me!)

But we do "accuse" all men of presenting some sort of risk, because statistically they do, which is the biggest reason why we exclude them from female only spaces.

I also think that "because we want them" is a good enough reason for female only spaces to exist. Trans people are welcome to set up trans only spaces if they wish to, and I would respect that and not try to enter those spaces myself.

I don't believe the OP is responsible for the violent and criminal acts of the worst trans activists. But if you read the thread from beginning to end, what you see repeatedly is women saying, "no" and the OP not accepting that "no".

So the OP's posts on this thread and the actions of the rage and hate filled trans activists are both somewhere on the spectrum of "male person disagrees with female person's right to say no".

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