Manscreaming

[Cuppasoupmonster]

Anyone else sick of this? I’ve never seen a woman do it.

Example 1 - 2 men on our (quiet, residential) street on opposite sides of the road are having a ‘conversation’. Only they’re not, they’re bellowing across the road to each other (with fuck or shit being every other word) for a good 10 minutes. Because it’s much more manly to stay where you are and scream like a nutter than it is to cross the road and talk like a normal person.

Example 2 - on a bus the other day, woman opposite me chatting quietly on her mobile. Bloke behind me picks his up and literally shouts down it - ‘HI KEV YOU ALRIGHT! YEAH IM ON THE BUS! YEAH FUCKING FREEZING ISNT IT! DID YOU HEAR ABOUT SO AND SO? YEAH WHAT A CUNT’ blah blah blah

Could probably come up with a new example every few days!

Just shut up you sad man nobody cares or is impressed with your stupid vocal cords

The key question is whether most women actually want to change things dramatically
If they're quite happy for the world to continue with the structural oppression of 50% of human beings then that's up to them.
I don't think they get to pretend they care about equality though.

Beamur
You're right. The word feminism is undermined because it means change, and when systemically oppressed groups start wanting a seat at the table and things to equitable that's a big challenge.

Unfortunately the dominance of partriarchy is so evident when there's women who seem unwilling or incapable of considering that society is stacked against us based on biology.

Realising the liberal feminism of my youth was far from promoting equality for women was an eye opening realisation.

I disagree.

I've met loads of women who aren't really fussed about pushing up the career ladder once the kids are at school. They don't really need to if their joint income is more than enough.

I honestly think this can be a blind spot for many feminists (not being goady). A lot of women don't see their career as some sort of validation/equaliser with men. It's just a way to make money/improve lifestyle and it becomes less necessary once joint income is at the stage where they don't need to push the career.

You can call me wrong but I've seen it so many times and spoken to so many women that agree.

These women won't call it 'relying on a man', because really it's not that simple. They say things like "the decision for my husband to be the main earner was the best thing for us as a family and I don't need to justify it to anyone". Often I see quite a lot of hostility in threads on here between these types of women and feminists.

If they're quite happy for the world to continue with the structural oppression of 50% of human beings then that's up to them.

I don't think they get to pretend they care about equality though.

But most women regard equality as 'equality of opportunity' not literally everything being mirrored. They have the opportunity to not work full time and many choose that.

I think it's a bit insulting when feminists paint women as 'not knowing what's best for them' just because they make decisions that aren't in line with feminist ideology (not saying you're specifically doing that, more in general).

I've met a lot of men who aren't that fussed about pushing up the career ladder, once they've got a household income they are happy with.

Some people are motivated by career or money, some aren't. What is your point?

But most women regard equality as 'equality of opportunity' not literally everything being mirrored. They have the opportunity to not work full time and many choose that.
But choices aren't in a vacuum.
Boys and girls are socialised differently from birth.
They're directed to different careers.
There's socialisation on parenting roles and responsibilities, with the expectations being that women go part time not men.

I think it's a bit insulting when feminists paint women as 'not knowing what's best for them' just because they make decisions that aren't in line with feminist ideology (not saying you're specifically doing that, more in general).
I don't think feminists paint women as not knowing what's best for them.

I think they find it frustrating that when systemic oppression is baked into society, that some women would rather be blissfully naive and refuse to think about things because they're too busy arguing 'feminists are man hating'.

For example there are choices I've made at times that probably wouldn't fit the ideal feminist choice, but I also know that my choices are made within a society that has socialised me in a certain way with structural oppression baked in. Some women don't want to consider this for whatever reason, but I don't think they get to claim they care about equality when they're openly against women talking about big issues.

I honestly think this can be a blind spot for many feminists (not being goady). A lot of women don't see their career as some sort of validation/equaliser with men

i think this is a good point but personally frame it differently. Being a homemaker or carer is a valuable role and essential for society. But it is perceived (by some) as a lesser choice, because it's not paid/competitive.
Being part-time or unambitious is not anti-feminist. Framing it as such is another way of undermining feminism as a way of thinking. We don't have to be the same as men for equality, but what we should be insisting on is equality of opportunity and choice.

think this is a good point but personally frame it differently. Being a homemaker or carer is a valuable role and essential for society. But it is perceived (by some) as a lesser choice, because it's not paid/competitive.
Being part-time or unambitious is not anti-feminist. Framing it as such is another way of undermining feminism as a way of thinking. We don't have to be the same as men for equality, but what we should be insisting on is equality of opportunity and choice.
This, and it to be a meaningful equality of opportunity.

I don't think it's a coincidence that when women gained more opportunities to move into the workplace, the consequences that followed was that women ended up working full time AND still carrying the domestic load. More women in the workplace did not lead to greater equality at home.

What would be a bigger shift towards equality, in my opinion, would be more men taking shared parental leave, more men going part time, and more men sharing the load on domestic and child rearing responsibilities.

What would be a bigger shift towards equality, in my opinion, would be more men taking shared parental leave, more men going part time, and more men sharing the load on domestic and child rearing responsibilities

I agree in principle but you have to look at it like this - how would men twist that to benefit them? I don’t like the idea of men stealing women’s maternity leave (of course in most cases it’s mutually agreeable, but I can imagine quite a few men ‘persuading’ her to let him have it). Men going part time - less CMS? Part time women are seen as lazy, part time men who ‘look after their kids’ would be seen as heroes and ‘amazing dads’.

It would need properly thinking through and needs to go hand in hand with the bar being raised on expectations. CMS reform is another overdue area to look at as it's a joke how little men can get away with contributing, especially if they move in with a new girlfriend and keep having more kids.

I know a lot of people who used shared parental leave to maximise finances for the household and keep a parent at home for longer. I also know quite a few dads who work part time or put flexible working requests in so they can do the school runs and make up hours elsewhere.

There has to be a large scale shift on the domestic front in my opinion before we make major progress because at the moment the solution to men not pulling their weight at home is to hire a cleaner/outsource domestic work to another women who is then working for minimum wage. It's still associating domestic duties with women and low value. It's one sticking point I have where some branches of feminism feel very middle class to me and seem to advance one group of women off the back of another group of women without really challenging the main issue: that men don't step up.

Agreed. I just wouldn’t want it to become another tool to disadvantage women let make it look ‘on paper’ like men are heroes doing everything. I can see it being argued in divorce courts ‘he took 6 months out of his career to look after her children’ - and it having more clout than vice versa because his career is so much more special and important. And so on!

They want the attention. I was just thinking this yesterday about men shouting banter at each other, quite intimidating to be near even when no aggression.

As said by previous posters this is dominance behaviour, a way of advertising their status to others, signalling to everyone that they are the biggest baddest loudest etc
Of course it's very unsophisticated and primitive form of dominance behaviour but you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear ...or should that be pigs ear? 🤣

What would be a bigger shift towards equality, in my opinion, would be more men taking shared parental leave, more men going part time, and more men sharing the load on domestic and child rearing responsibilities

I feel this wouldn't go down well with a lot of women though.

Part time women are seen as lazy, part time men who ‘look after their kids’ would be seen as heroes and ‘amazing dads’.

But the statistics actually show that women divorce SAHDs/lower earners at much higher rates and see 'alpha' males as more eligible partners - high earning, assertive men that display traditionally 'masculine' traits. I don't know if it was this or another thread but I remember seeing the divorce stat mentioned in last couple of days.

I have always noticed the bellowing and swearing in the street from a young girl. They wait until a woman or young gril goes past and then it is all "Yeah well I went to the fucking pub and had a fucking pint with John and you'll never guess what the bastard said to me. The cunt only f etc. Well you get the picture.

Thing is a lot of people swear. Not impressive.

I often go in a cafe (several where I live) and loads of blokes bellow in their phones. I have to say they are usually Turkish or Russian. The Russians often walk up and down while doing it! Drives me mad.

My friend and I sat in from of a guy one the bus where he had the usual conversation about being on a bus. Y eah. No a bus. I am on a bus.

I am so tempted to bellow down the phone. Yeah a bus. Big red thing with wheels. No A BUS!