Manscreaming

[Cuppasoupmonster]

Anyone else sick of this? I’ve never seen a woman do it.

Example 1 - 2 men on our (quiet, residential) street on opposite sides of the road are having a ‘conversation’. Only they’re not, they’re bellowing across the road to each other (with fuck or shit being every other word) for a good 10 minutes. Because it’s much more manly to stay where you are and scream like a nutter than it is to cross the road and talk like a normal person.

Example 2 - on a bus the other day, woman opposite me chatting quietly on her mobile. Bloke behind me picks his up and literally shouts down it - ‘HI KEV YOU ALRIGHT! YEAH IM ON THE BUS! YEAH FUCKING FREEZING ISNT IT! DID YOU HEAR ABOUT SO AND SO? YEAH WHAT A CUNT’ blah blah blah

Could probably come up with a new example every few days!

Just shut up you sad man nobody cares or is impressed with your stupid vocal cords

But some would say that it's usually privileged white women discriminating against poor marginalised trans women and that you deserve to lose your career for that kind of nastiness.

At that point you really better hope your employer upholds your protected characteristics/beliefs.

@lapasion - I always have a small internal giggle that as well as being unable to talk quietly- I've never met a male patient yet that doesn't also 'performance' vomit. It has to be loud, everyone has to know. Whilst the woman in the next cubicle is heaving quietly to herself 🤣🤣🤣🤣

Good job I'm not white then... 🙄

My husband has a cold, he is currently performance clearing his throat. I feel a bit sorry for him actually because he is more ill than me (because I am a few days ahead of him on getting better) but I have this really noisy cough so I sound worse. So his throat clearing is noisier than normal and I'm pretty sure it's for sympathy

He's cute though, and he doesn't manspread so I will keep him

Most gc feminists are. It's not all about you.

Of course its not all about me but you were responding to me

I am entirely unsure how feminists are supposed to discuss male patterns of behaviour that can lead to issues in society and for women without discussing men.

But then I think that's rather your point, to shut down any criticism of men by kicking up lots of dust and waffle. We've seen it all before.

Also that lots of feminists are very quick to argue that their sex and gc beliefs are protected characteristics and can't be discriminated against, but don't seem to have an issue discriminating against other protected characteristics.

Again, what are you talking about? Noone has been discriminating on the basis of protected characteristics. You are the poster who bought up random stuff to do with Muslims and black people.

The thread is about an annoying characteristic of some men. Really not sure why you keep bringing up protected characteristics....

Also....this is feminist chat and not all feminists here are GC.

And there is nothing to suggest most GC feminists are white.

And people's ethnicity is entirely irrelevant to any point you are making.

Weird

It might be worth pointing out that the majority of court cases brought by GC women recently were from women who were not the stereotype GC feminist.
It's a lazy trope to say GC feminism is white and right wing. Not in the UK it's not.
But I am not sure what that has to do with a discussion around observed behaviour of (some) men being excessively loud and intrusive in public.

Gotta say I kinda agree that man bashing just turns most women away. It's one of the recurring reasons listed by women that reject feminism, which is now the vast majority despite most of them believing in equality.

I've been a member of choirs for many years. One thing that drives me insane is when during rehearsals the conductor signals for us to stop, because they want to make a suggestion about the performance etc., and the singers carry on for several bars instead of stopping immediately. So irritating for the other singers and disrespectful to the conductor. I had an epiphany the other day and realised that it's ALWAYS the tenors and basses.

Gotta say I kinda agree that man bashing just turns most women away. It's one of the recurring reasons listed by women that reject feminism, which is now the vast majority despite most of them believing in equality.
If women have an issue with other women discussing male pattern behaviour/ have an issue with women discussing male pattern behaviour without extensive prefaces and disclaimers NAMALT/consider women discussing male pattern behaviour is man bashing, then I'd imagine they're either probably not as feminist as they think, or they like the individualistic liberal feminism and don't want to concern themselves too much with social and institutional patterns.

I'd imagine they don't consider themselves feminist at all if they reject feminism.

I'd imagine they don't consider themselves feminist at all if they reject feminism

If they believe in equality of the sexes and want change so the sexes to be equal, that's feminism.

If they don't believe in feminism, and find women discussing male pattern behaviour man hating, they're not in favour of equality.

When some women are arguing I'm in favour of equality, but don't like feminists because they don't centre men enough, and when they discuss male pattern behaviour it's man bashing it's a fairly strong sign the patriarchy is working. They've even got women keeping it in place.

But what about women who believe in equality but not really in the patriarchy etc?

I feel like I agree on some things but on others feminists interpret things very differently. Like, it's touted as a huge basis for oppression that women earn a bit less, and the man is painted as hugely privileged to continue being the primary earner.

However, what I've repeatedly seen in the real world is my colleagues choosing not to return to work full time once the kids are at school, or not really being too fussed about pushing up the career ladder once their husband earns enough money.

They end up working 2-3 days a week while benefitting from husband's salary which is paid into a joint account. They have the family, funds, and the free time without the stress of being breadwinner and having to claw their way up the ladder. I believe this mental load on men shows in their poor mental health/tendency to commit suicide near 50yo.

I really struggle to see this as oppression though some feminists try really hard to make the cap fit. It's a unique privilege where as a sex we sacrifice 10p in every pound and trade this for being able to give up full time work with little social stigma (most I've seen actually comes from feminists).

When this debate comes up occasionally it becomes all about financially abusive husbands and 'kept women' but that's not what I see IRL. Of course, there is sometimes a risk in giving up full time work but you have to balance that with the choice (that men rarely have) and decide whether you're happy to take the risks for a life of relative ease. If you were never particularly career minded or academic anyway it could be a no brainer.

Otherwise, you can just keep working for another 3-4 decades like most men.

If they don't believe in patriarchy then they're missing a huge part of why women are systemically oppressed.

To give examples:

Why is it that it's women who happen to end up saying things like "it makes sense for me to be the one to give up work/go part time"?

Why is it women who find themselves saying "the cost of childcare is more than my wages so I should be the one to give up work"?

Why are careers associated with femininity typically paid less?

Why is it women and girls who are steered towards careers that tend to be undervalued and underpaid?

Why are girls and boys socialised in different ways and certain traits are pushed on children from the second they're born?

Why are men often the ones who are clued up on their long term earning potential, the legal implications of marriage, pensions and are in a much better position than women who (just look at the boards on here) are much more likely to end up financially vulnerable because they haven't got themselves clued up?

Why are men reluctant to go part time and have two part time salaries and share the load?

Why do schools/nurseries/society always think it's the woman who has to be called to pick a poorly child up?

Why is there an assumption that because children will get unwell and need to be looked after in the school holidays that that person should be mum?

Why is it that as more women work full time and there's more two parent households, the domestic load hasn't become more equitable?

Why are boys socialised from a young age that to be masculine men they have to keep their feelings suppressed and when girls talk about their feelings it's proof they're so emotional and hysterical?

If someone doesn't want to consider structural oppression and consider the ways that this is baked into society from the time babies leave the womb, then are they really interested in equality?

If someone's feminism/belief in equality boils down to "here's some women I know and the choices they made as individuals", is that actually a concern for equality? I'd say not.

Why do people on here ask 20 questions at once? It's not really conducive to a discussion. I'll try and answer a few in the short amount of time I have.

Why is it that it's women who happen to end up saying things like "it makes sense for me to be the one to give up work/go part time"?

Well, why wouldn't you if you were offered the opportunity to cut a few days from your working week and still live comfortably? Women usually do this because it's not really socially acceptable for men - we're not yet at that stage.

Why do schools/nurseries/society always think it's the woman who has to be called to pick a poorly child up?

Why is there an assumption that because children will get unwell and need to be looked after in the school holidays that that person should be mum?

Related to the above. It's much more common/socially acceptable for women to step back from their jobs so they're already doing more caring responsibilities. Most I know don't have a big issue with this having chosen to do so rather than grind it at a desk all day.

Why are men reluctant to go part time and have two part time salaries and share the load?

I'm not sure they really are. Our society places pressure on men to earn more and statistically a lower earning male or SAHD is more likely to be divorced. They're trying to 'step up' and play their expected role.

Why are men often the ones who are clued up on their long term earning potential, the legal implications of marriage, pensions and are in a much better position than women who (just look at the boards on here) are much more likely to end up financially vulnerable because they haven't got themselves clued up?

Well, men have to be. For every financially vulnerable woman there are others that have it easy - work 2-3 days a week and still have loads of money due to sharing finances. Some may technically be more financially vulnerable than when they worked full time but nonetheless have a much better quality of life - this is the gamble.

Look at the current thread in AIBU. Husband and wife both working full time. He pays full house deposit and 70% of the mortgage as she is training/getting qualifications etc and can't put in as much. His parents also contribute money. Several years later she's divorcing him and going for half of everything (his pension/savings too) although she never facilitated his career and didn't put in anywhere close to as much towards the house she now wants half of. Posters are saying "oh well, that's marriage. He knew what he was getting into". I'll bet he was just trying to 'step up' and do the best thing for his wife, who he was madly in love with at the time.

The real world doesn't always match up to feminist theory IME.

i'm not sure they really are. Our society places pressure on men to earn more

Patriarchal expectations also affect individual men's choices too. Unwinding these structural rules and roles can benefit men too.
I expect a lot of men suffer immense stress from the burden of being primary breadwinners and finding time for families and relaxation. Plus judgement from other men if they take on more childcare or work part time.

Patriarchal expectations also affect individual men's choices too. Unwinding these structural rules and roles can benefit men too.
I expect a lot of men suffer immense stress from the burden of being primary breadwinners and finding time for families and relaxation. Plus judgement from other men if they take on more childcare or work part time
This^^
Look at the huge issue of poor mental health in men.

Then look at how boys are taught from a young age that boys don't cry, they need to toughen up and the way teens and young adults talk about manning up, usually meaning to get over whatever emotions you're feeling and suck it up.

The exception seems to be anger. It's seen as acceptable for men to express anger, but not sadness or hurt.

The sexism underlying all of this is that to express emotions and to get emotional is a womanly and feminine thing to do, and by default also a negative thing, which makes it unacceptable for men and boys to express emotions.

Same for working part time and being actively involved in domestic responsibilities. It's assumed to be women's work by society, therefore lesser than important man jobs, therefore it's viewed negatively by quite a lot of people if a man does it.
Many men in DH's work part time, but I remember people being 'concerned' when he also went part time. Nobody expressed concern about me when I went part time though, because I'm a woman and that's what women do.

Why do people on here ask 20 questions at once? It's not really conducive to a discussion. I'll try and answer a few in the short amount of time I have.
The questions were an illustration of the sort of things people probably should think about before dismissing the idea of patriarchy.

Even in your answers it's loud and clear many of those structural inequalities are there because, just because society says/but we aren't at that point yet.

Our decisions don't exist in a vacuum.This is what feminists aim to unpick to make things more equitable.

Can't disagree with a lot of those points. I do feel though that a lot of women still encourage this dynamic by prioritising high earning men etc (no doubt because it facilitates the life described above whereby his salary allows them to step back from the work world). Obv nobody wants a cocklodger and financial troubles do not an easy life make, but I do think it's no coincidence that lots of men strive to emulate what we see as 'eligible'.

The difficult question is who do we listen to between feminists and the other demographic which is over 3/4 of women, much more in some studies.

Even in Sweden only 40% of women claim to be feminists nowadays. In places like Germany it's 8%.

The key question is whether most women actually want to change things dramatically - I'm not answering either way, just posing the question. Would they really rather share caring responsibilities and work another few days a week until almost 70yo? I highly suspect a fair few wouldn't be keen on this.

I don't think it matters what you call yourself. It's what you say and what you do that really counts.
Feminism as a label is undermined, because what it stands for is powerful and disruptive.
I'm not speaking for other women. My preference would be for them to be able to speak for themselves.
Our decisions don't exist in a vacuum
This is something I say a lot to my DD and other girls!

Well, men have to be. For every financially vulnerable woman there are others that have it easy - work 2-3 days a week and still have loads of money due to sharing finances.
WTAF
Most part time workers (men and women) are PT because they have caring responsibilities. That's not "having it easy". When a couple have decided to have children, it will impact on their joint finances. It doesn't mean the lower earner "has it easy"
Sexist load of dribble you spouted there

Anyway the actual key question of this thread is why do a subset of men think its ok to talk and swear loudly in public places?