Is the world actually fair on men.

[Bella3456]

A very interesting one here and I'm intrigued to hear peoples thoughts. This is to do with abuse. A very long time ago I had social services involved (they are long gone now) me and partner had a physical altercation (lots more to it but will leave it at that) because of having a child social services got involved and I explained that it was both of us (hes long gone by the way) and instantly they were telling me how terrible he was.....but not how terrible I was i found it really strange. However I have a 6 year old boy and I must admit if he hit a woman I'd go absolutely ballistic and march him straight to therapy. When I defended my ex partner again saying it too was my fault no one believed me. I honestly could do no wrong and I just found the whole thing really odd. It does turn out that he ended up being incredibly emotionally and physically abusive in the end and social services said I was only 'reacting to my surroundings' which I actually believe to be true. I also believe that men being violent towards women can cause women a lot more damage because biologically they are much stronger. However if a woman was repeatedly attacking my son let's say when he's older for example constantly punching him and he hits her back i would be RAGING. But why is this? I do feel like its because men are naturally stronger so its not a 'fair fight' but also I feel like almost everyone is quick to not blame a woman and blame it all on the man. Interesting one to debate. Also want to stress I believe violence is wrong....no matter man or woman. But personally I believe man on woman violence is worse because the woman is at so much more risk due to how much stronger men are (normally). What's everyone's thoughts?

And do you not think, Felix, that the percentage of women in positions of leadership in business is the same as you move down the ranks of businesses? None of this is hard to find out, you can easily find the percentage of women owned and run businesses. You can find out the number of women on local councils, parish councils, in the leadership of sports organisations, volunteer organisations etc etc. In every strata of society where there is any small amount of influence or power.

Men might not achieve at school yet soon enough that becomes irrelevant as they progress upwards and earn more than women.

You are complaining about a system that has been created for the benefit of men, for hundreds of years, for not benefiting enough men in enough ways.

And do you think those businesses are actively seeking to just have men in those elevated ranks - even if its to the detriment of the business?

Do you not think that personal choice comes into this - and a lot of the reasons why people don't go for promotions is through their own personal choices and not anything to do with the company making it difficult for individuals.

You also have to take into consideration that men and women chose different things - so you will never have equality of outcome. That's why 90% of nurses are women and 90% of car mechanics are male.

Men don't achieve at school - and its doesn't then become irrelevant as the majority of unemployed are men, the majority who are homeless are men, the majority who commit suicide are men.

The 'system' has not been created for the benefit of men - it has been created for the benefit of society

@RoseslnTheHospital

And do you not think, Felix, that the percentage of women in positions of leadership in business is the same as you move down the ranks of businesses? None of this is hard to find out, you can easily find the percentage of women owned and run businesses. You can find out the number of women on local councils, parish councils, in the leadership of sports organisations, volunteer organisations etc etc. In every strata of society where there is any small amount of influence or power.

Men might not achieve at school yet soon enough that becomes irrelevant as they progress upwards and earn more than women.

You are complaining about a system that has been created for the benefit of men, for hundreds of years, for not benefiting enough men in enough ways.

You're not prepared to meet Felix half way here are you? The system was designed to benefit some men and overall is skewed to befit men more than women. It also exploits men for the benefit of a handful of other men. Patriarchy affects all women and most men and that's what Felix is getting at.

If i were to walk down a street there is a 70% chance that any violent act will be aimed at me as a male - yet society doesn't seem to be interested in that statistic or do anything to try and stop it.

Thats quite interesting Felix. Now if I were to think to myself who in society should be interested in stopping violent assault the first thing that would come to mind would be the police. You are literally a police officer, you want society to be interested, do something about it....

You're not prepared to meet Felix half way here are you?

To be fair Felix is a fequent flyer, always here to tell the wimmin they are wimmining wrong, blaming us for not being able to fix societies problems and trying to make male violence our issue to sort. Kind of gets hard to meet him half way after awhile as every time you move a meter towards him he moves half a mile back and then still wants you to meet him half way

@Toomanyradishes

You're not prepared to meet Felix half way here are you?

To be fair Felix is a fequent flyer, always here to tell the wimmin they are wimmining wrong, blaming us for not being able to fix societies problems and trying to make male violence our issue to sort. Kind of gets hard to meet him half way after awhile as every time you move a meter towards him he moves half a mile back and then still wants you to meet him half way

Ah ok, not familiar with the history.....

@Ohsugarhoneyicetea

2000 years of patriarchy beg to differ. The very few women who make it to the top do so under patriarchy and with all focus on fulfilling their duties to it, as that is the only way they ascend - they do not represent the interests of women. In fact the vast majority of these women do not have even have children, unlike most male leaders. The UK is one of the best countries in the world for women and in its history (see how patriarchy is even fused into our language) of prime ministers since 1721, just 2 have been women, both in the last 50 years. Men change society to benefit themselves. The only advances women have had we made for ourselves. They came at great cost and from grass roots movements like the suffragettes. Power concedes nothing without demand.

do not even have children

What the hell is this comment!

That childfree women are less than?
All women have to have children?

I can’t stand people who put mothers on the pedestal.

I only have my personal experience to go on, and cannot remain objective.

I knew who the abuser was when I was a child. It didn’t matter who I told, no one believed me. No one could believe my mother could be abusive to us all.

So yes most abusers are men, but don’t forget grown women are a lot bigger and stronger than children. Wherever there is a power imbalance an abuser will exploit it whether they are male or female.

In my situation my dad had a fair share of abuse as well. He knew no one would believe him or me. So he put up with it. My mother knew no one would believe us so she carried on with it.

So yes NAMALT but some are, can equally apply to the word ‘mother’ as it does to ‘men’.

My personal experience has made me feel safer around men, I had a lot of male friends and very few female friends. It took a lot of therapy, her death and my own motherhood to have respect for feminism. BUT I think back to my teens and earlier 20s and all the male friends in my life
Who saved me from myself, fixed me, supported me and never once tried it on with me.

There are good and bad people out there. I concede most domestic abuse is conducted by men against women but I hate reading how women can only hurt men, men can kill women, they are stronger. Well what about the CHILDREN who cannot leave home as easily as a grown adult can. Who must rely on their abusive parent(s) to care for them. Please god I wish people would centre children more on these
Moral discussions of domestic abuse. How many children must die at the hands Of their mothers for people to see it.

@Toomanyradishes

If i were to walk down a street there is a 70% chance that any violent act will be aimed at me as a male - yet society doesn't seem to be interested in that statistic or do anything to try and stop it.

Thats quite interesting Felix. Now if I were to think to myself who in society should be interested in stopping violent assault the first thing that would come to mind would be the police. You are literally a police officer, you want society to be interested, do something about it....

We do, we literally arrest people all the time for violent acts on the street - but the statistic remains the same and has done for many years now.

@Toomanyradishes

You're not prepared to meet Felix half way here are you?

To be fair Felix is a fequent flyer, always here to tell the wimmin they are wimmining wrong, blaming us for not being able to fix societies problems and trying to make male violence our issue to sort. Kind of gets hard to meet him half way after awhile as every time you move a meter towards him he moves half a mile back and then still wants you to meet him half way

I'm not blaming any one specific group for society's problems

And i have also not said that male violence is an issue just for women to sort. Its an issue for society to sort.

I agree - it is difficult to meet half way when you throw these wild accusations at me.

Comments from another poster of:
"All men benefit from men holding the majority of positions of power in the world. So yes, all men."

Cannot be true and i agree with Jonny that it makes no sense. The reason why people success in business and gain the elevated positions is not through a patriarchal power - its through competence & hard work.

How does the homeless, unemployed man who may end up committing suicide benefit from 'men holding the majority of positions of power'. As there are more men than women that occupy these homeless, unemployed groups.

And its still a much higher percentage of pupils taking STEM options at school are boys. Now is that because of the patriarchy that the schools are forcing girls away from those subjects or is it down to the choice of the individuals?

And isn't that the kind of society you want - equality of opportunity?

Felix you literally blamed all future people being stripped searched by the police personally on me because i refused to engage with you further. But thats not the point of this thread, I just thought the poster deserved a warning about your posting style.

The reason why people success in business and gain the elevated positions is not through a patriarchal power - its through competence & hard work.

If you truly believe this the fundamentally you do not understand the nuances that make this up. But i am fairly certain that as a group men named Andrew are not fundamentally more competent and hard working than the female half of the population, but in australia you are more likely to be a ceo if you are named andrew than if you are a woman.

And its still a much higher percentage of pupils taking STEM options at school are boys. Now is that because of the patriarchy that the schools are forcing girls away from those subjects or is it down to the choice of the individuals?

Well personally not many years ago in group presentations about science alevels the head of science told us that the male teachers didnt like girls taking physics, they preferred all male classes, so we would be better off not taking them.

Additionally my husband, an engineer, has never worked with a female engineer in the business he works for. Not because no women apply, they never bother to interview them.

Now these are just random occurences but they help build towards the bigger picture.

I do however agree wth you here:

How does the homeless, unemployed man who may end up committing suicide benefit from 'men holding the majority of positions of power'. As there are more men than women that occupy these homeless, unemployed groups

I personally dont think the patriarchy helps all men. What it does is provide an easier path though life for most men but not all e.g. working class white boys are likely to perform less well than working class white girls in school, but are highly likely to significantly oytearn them in adulthood, potentially because society fundamentally values traditionally male working class jobs (e.g. builder) over traditionally female working clas jobs (e.g. carer), so that benefits men. (There are of course questions around why more women dont go into building etc but actually the point is why are 'male jobs' better paid than 'female jobs' and why on earth arent carers valued by society when its such an essential job)

However the patriarcy fails men too. A patriarcy that has traditionally rewarded male violence means more men are assaulted. A patriarcy that expects men to be the providers potentially leads to men putting to much pressure on themselves -does this result in more suicides? A patriarchy which has a history of world violence, and male soldiers means more male homeless veterans with ptsd etc.

But im fairly sure the answer to this is not to keep parroting that more men get promoted because they deserve it more than women. Pretty sure that does not solve the issue.

You come on the feminism board a lot to talk about about how hard the world is for men, usually (not in this case to be fair) on threads where we are talking about violence on women. Im curious as to which majority male forums you are actually taking this conversation to?

Cannot be true and i agree with Jonny that it makes no sense. The reason why people success in business and gain the elevated positions is not through a patriarchal power - its through competence & hard work.

That's not entirely true though is it - I have worked hard, good at my job, am high ranking, at the stage where my next job will likely come through a contact rather than applying - but I necessarily have fewer professional friends in my industry, which is heavily male dominated, because many deals are struck and friendships made doing male team sports, in strip clubs and bars, and on company funded jollies abroad, and whilst if I was a bloke, they'd feel fine inviting me, as a woman, they really don't (and lets face it, I really don't want to go to them either), so I miss out on networking opportunities.

And its still a much higher percentage of pupils taking STEM options at school are boys. Now is that because of the patriarchy that the schools are forcing girls away from those subjects or is it down to the choice of the individuals?

I can see you're not a woman in stem, or a girl playing games online or at youth club, because yes, boys drive girls away from this - you've never walked into a room of 100 men as the only woman, or immediately become the focus of highly sexualised harassment the moment you open your mouth in a computer game. Women in stem (not all stem, but in my branch) have to be determined, there's a lot of bull-headed gritted teeth to get through it, which the men don't have to endure, so only any bloke could make it through, but on only the most stubborn women.

Felix you literally blamed all future people being stripped searched by the police personally on me...
No I didn't - I said that you were reluctant to share an idea which would prevent future situations where such searches are needed.

Stop mixing threads to muddy the waters - if you want to discuss that further - reopen the other thread.

If you truly believe this the fundamentally you do not understand the nuances that make this up. But i am fairly certain that as a group men named Andrew are not fundamentally more competent and hard working than the female half of the population, but in australia you are more likely to be a ceo if you are named andrew than if you are a woman.
But that has nothing to do with a patriarchal power thats putting them in that position. For any society or company to work properly, it cannot achieve this by power. Its competence that's the main driving force.

For example - if your car breaks down and you take it to a garage to be fixed, the chances are that the mechanic will be male. That's not because there are groups of tyrannical patriarchal men forcing you to make that choice - your choosing it through competence. Or why don't you take it to an all female garage (Spannerswithmanners) and promote the female mechanics industry?

And are you seriously suggesting that businesses - if given a choice between a competent hardworking male and an even better competent hardworking female - they will always chose the male because that's they way it is - and run the risk of it being detrimental to the company? General Motors, UPS, Citigroup etc would disagree with you.

Well personally not many years ago in group presentations about science alevels the head of science told us that the male teachers didnt like girls taking physics, they preferred all male classes, so we would be better off not taking them.
Additionally my husband, an engineer, has never worked with a female engineer in the business he works for. Not because no women apply, they never bother to interview them.
The teacher is clearly wrong and if they are expressing that publicly they should be dismissed. You husbands company is clearly wrong to do that and would probably not be able to compete with a company like General Motors.

You will always get such people throughout society - but i don't think that's the general rule of thumb here. All the schools, colleges and universities my children have gone through have never expressed anything like that. I've never experienced anything like that at work and neither has my wife who has enjoyed a number of promotions through her career.

I personally dont think the patriarchy helps all men. What it does is provide an easier path though life for most men but not all
Most STEM careers tend to be more scalable in pay which is why the wages are higher - but i agree carer jobs should be paid more. But i don't understand why carers take on the jobs if the pay is so low - why not refuse it or chose another career path. Or is it personal choice of the individual? Does the individual carer not mind the pay being the way it is when you take into consideration whatever benefits the job provides - working hours etc etc. there are lots of men who work in the care industry and will be on the same pay.

Nurses and brick layers will be on similar pay. Yet 80% of nurses are female but 80% of bricklayers are male - why is that if the pay is more or less the same? If its just a pay thing then surly it would be more 50/50.

Lots of things lead to suicides in both men & women - you can't just blame it on the pressures on the male having to achieve the goals of the patriarchal system. The vast majority of male suicides have never been in the armed forces so can't use the 'violent soldier with PTSD' as an example of this.

I have not said that more men get promoted because they deserve it more than women. People get promoted on their merits and on their own personal interests. 99.9% of the population would not like to be a CEO of any company, so the majority of the population will only benefit if that company or society is successful.

Oh Felix why are you even on a feminism board if you fundamentally believe that the reason get paid less and promoted less is because they just arent as good as men.

QuinkWashable
And that's clearly wrong for your company to do that, but I don't think its the norm across society & businesses.

It also works the other way around - I have had to deal with situations in places of 200+ women as the only man and immediately become the focus of highly sexualised harassment, assault etc. So it can effect all people during their working life. And I'm not saying its right either, but it is there.

@Toomanyradishes

Oh Felix why are you even on a feminism board if you fundamentally believe that the reason get paid less and promoted less is because they just arent as good as men.

I have not said that and you clearly haven't understood what i have wrote.

We'll just agree to differ on this one and post no further comments - as you obviously don't think I should be on here to post an opinion in the first place.

@Felix125

QuinkWashable And that's clearly wrong for your company to do that, but I don't think its the norm across society & businesses.

It also works the other way around - I have had to deal with situations in places of 200+ women as the only man and immediately become the focus of highly sexualised harassment, assault etc. So it can effect all people during their working life. And I'm not saying its right either, but it is there.

Cool story

I’ve had a lot of pets, some male, some female. In general the males go looking for fights and other ways to dominate. The females tend to stay closer to home, and be more obedient. If challeneges they may take revenge / go nuts, but in general, they prefer to avoid a fight and don’t seek one.

With humans too, the vast majority of violent crime is by men. And the majority of victims of domestic violence are women, often who genuinely believe that it was their fault.

Social services deal in realities, they meet a great many families and when they met you they recognised the situation straight away. It wasn’t sexism, no.

*AdamRyan

Felix125

QuinkWashable
And that's clearly wrong for your company to do that, but I don't think its the norm across society & businesses.

It also works the other way around - I have had to deal with situations in places of 200+ women as the only man and immediately become the focus of highly sexualised harassment, assault etc. So it can effect all people during their working life. And I'm not saying its right either, but it is there.

Cool story*

I use all these words and you just nail it in two

We'll just agree to differ on this one and post no further comments

You dont speak for me, or control when I post. If you no longer want to engage with you, as I have dont with you previously I will respect your boundaries (unlike you). But you dont get to speak for me

@Toomanyradishes

We'll just agree to differ on this one and post no further comments

You dont speak for me, or control when I post. If you no longer want to engage with you, as I have dont with you previously I will respect your boundaries (unlike you). But you dont get to speak for me

....and similarly you don't speak for me, or control when I post. Since you continually question why I comment on such threads.

Ever heard of the term coercion op? Well you we're coerced into violence. It made him feel better about the level of violence he was inflicting on you. It was about power. You need to go to therapy op if you don't understand that.

@titchy

98% of violence is male perpetrated. 98 fucking %.

I’d be interested to know where that stat came from. Most likely recorded/reported/convicted violence.

There is a lot of domestic abuse where the male is the victim but doesn’t report it out of shame/embarrassment. I’ve been out near clubs at kick out time and seen women fighting nearly as much as men!

Yes, in most cases violence is perpetrated by a male - but take the 98% with a pinch of salt.

Men have it easier in life, and there are noises that the law and workplace are moving to be fairer, but it is nowhere near fair yet.

*CanIHaveASnaaaaak

titchy

98% of violence is male perpetrated.
98 fucking %.

I’d be interested to know where that stat came from. Most likely recorded/reported/convicted violence.

There is a lot of domestic abuse where the male is the victim but doesn’t report it out of shame/embarrassment. I’ve been out near clubs at kick out time and seen women fighting nearly as much as men!

Yes, in most cases violence is perpetrated by a male - but take the 98% with a pinch of salt.

Men have it easier in life, and there are noises that the law and workplace are moving to be fairer, but it is nowhere near fair yet.*

To be fair though I know loads of women who also dont report assault, particularly sexual assault, so its not necessarily that violence towards men is hidden, violence towards women is hidden too unfortunately. I think coming up with a clear statistic will always be impossible, because, in this threads context of domestic abuse, there are men and women around the country being assaulted by a partner that may never become part of the statistics.

The vast majority of the homeless are men. Men are far more likely to be victims of violence than women, men or boys ,specifically white working class, are far more educationally disadvantaged, the vast majority of victims of war are men, the vast majority of suicides are men , men are more likely to get a longer prison sentence then women for the same offence.