Is the world actually fair on men.

[Bella3456]

A very interesting one here and I'm intrigued to hear peoples thoughts. This is to do with abuse. A very long time ago I had social services involved (they are long gone now) me and partner had a physical altercation (lots more to it but will leave it at that) because of having a child social services got involved and I explained that it was both of us (hes long gone by the way) and instantly they were telling me how terrible he was.....but not how terrible I was i found it really strange. However I have a 6 year old boy and I must admit if he hit a woman I'd go absolutely ballistic and march him straight to therapy. When I defended my ex partner again saying it too was my fault no one believed me. I honestly could do no wrong and I just found the whole thing really odd. It does turn out that he ended up being incredibly emotionally and physically abusive in the end and social services said I was only 'reacting to my surroundings' which I actually believe to be true. I also believe that men being violent towards women can cause women a lot more damage because biologically they are much stronger. However if a woman was repeatedly attacking my son let's say when he's older for example constantly punching him and he hits her back i would be RAGING. But why is this? I do feel like its because men are naturally stronger so its not a 'fair fight' but also I feel like almost everyone is quick to not blame a woman and blame it all on the man. Interesting one to debate. Also want to stress I believe violence is wrong....no matter man or woman. But personally I believe man on woman violence is worse because the woman is at so much more risk due to how much stronger men are (normally). What's everyone's thoughts?

Is the world fair on men

The world's not fair at all, who says it is.

A few years ago now we were in the social club when one of the men's wife came in. She was shouting at him and hitting him demanding he goes home (he'd stopped by at a leaving do). The poor sod was terrified as he was dragged out, while we were a bit shocked it was seen as funny as she was small and he was over 6ft. I think this is part of where the problem with violence against men arises, its sen as a bit of a joke.

@Bella3456

I just wanted to have a conversation about it all really, but yes when he's old enough I would teach him about it so he knows whats right and whats wrong and the acceptable way to react. Would do the same if I had a daughter

Again disingenuous; you teach your son not to hit back and to leave. You teach your daughter not to hit back, who to call, what to say (the old yell fire not rape), you teach her to bypass years of "be kind" or "he's not in touch with his feelings" (indoctrination). You teach her how to stay safe enough to buy time to escape.

The two are world's apart and you're well aware of it. One of the incredible things about MRAs is they are aware of it just as much as the rest of us - hence trying to dress it up.

I think that for men who are victims of domestic violence against women, they often can find people don't believe them, or minimize it, or even make fun. And I can certainly imagine a scenario like that where a man who defended himself or was drawn into an altercation was blamed inappropriately.

The fact is that it is hard to know when something is falling into the more common patter we've come to expect, or isn't. And that's not a matter of people being stupid or even unsympathetic, it really is nearly impossible to know from the outside what call to make.

Men are much more like.y to be able to physically leave if they are being abused by a woman, than women are if they are being abused by a man. So dont teach your son to just take it or only use proper self defence moves, teach him to walk away.

The reality is that, due to strength inbalance, men staying in domestic violence situatins are staying purely because they have issues with their self worth and understanding the kind of relationship they deserve. The best way to stop that from happening is not to tell your son how to defend himself if a woman does hit him, its modelling good relationships so he understands what good looks like and doesnt stick in a bad relationship because that kind of behaviour has been normalised.

It may also be helpful to get him to recognise red flags in a relationship, because violence is rarely the first issue, but again the easiest way is by having strong positive relationships so he has a baseline for what good is to measure against

Men are much more like.y to be able to physically leave if they are being abused by a woman, than women are if they are being abused by a man. So dont teach your son to just take it or only use proper self defence moves, teach him to walk away.

The reality is that, due to strength inbalance, men staying in domestic violence situatins are staying purely because they have issues with their self worth and understanding the kind of relationship they deserve.

This is a bit simplistic. I suspect there are many factors that will make a man stay. It may come as a surprise on MumsNet but a lot of men do actually love their children and enjoy being fathers, leaving puts that in jeopardy.

@Toomanyradishes

Men are much more like.y to be able to physically leave if they are being abused by a woman, than women are if they are being abused by a man. So dont teach your son to just take it or only use proper self defence moves, teach him to walk away.

The reality is that, due to strength inbalance, men staying in domestic violence situatins are staying purely because they have issues with their self worth and understanding the kind of relationship they deserve. The best way to stop that from happening is not to tell your son how to defend himself if a woman does hit him, its modelling good relationships so he understands what good looks like and doesnt stick in a bad relationship because that kind of behaviour has been normalised.

It may also be helpful to get him to recognise red flags in a relationship, because violence is rarely the first issue, but again the easiest way is by having strong positive relationships so he has a baseline for what good is to measure against

Exactly this.

OP you're either a trolling MRA or you really really need some therapy so you don't fuck up yours or your kids lives any further.

This is a bit simplistic. I suspect there are many factors that will make a man stay. It may come as a surprise on MumsNet but a lot of men do actually love their children and enjoy being fathers, leaving puts that in jeopardy.

Doesnt come as a suprise at all given plenty of us had fathers who love us, sorry if are all supposed to be man haters on here but thats not actually the case..

But given domestic abusers (males ones) can manage to get the courts to give them access to their children I dont see how leaving an abusive situation means a man wont get to carry on being a father to their children. The courts are very keen on shared custody so I dont see that it does put it in jeopardy

I can see however that a person aith low self esteem who is being physically and potentially mentally and emotionally abused might feel like they wont get custody, howver that is just part and parcel of the same thing as i described

Im just coming to the end of ' Men who hate Women' by Laura Bates its been a long read as I couldnt absorb all the language and stats, and got very sad whilst reading, but OMG it explains so much.
The Manosphere is not just domestic violence and misogyny but so many other strands of hatred that all play into the toxic patriarchy that we all have experience of, but this is what also harms men and boys but they just dont know it, because they dont recognise it

havn't explained that very well, its such a complex book

Its a very complicated issue.

I think the vast majority of people in the country live in warm loving relationships with no violence at all. However, there will always be a percentage of people who are anti-social with each other, aggressive, violent etc. As police, we tend to go to the same people over and over again having similar domestic violence episodes.

I think aggression levels between males and females are pretty similar although slightly weighted towards the males - so that if you stop a random male and female in the street it will be about 60/40 aggression level for male/female. Of course by maths therefore, your top 100 violent people will all be male.

I think male victims of DV are under reported for lots of reasons - we go to loads of jobs where the male has obvious injuries, but brushes them off as 'I fell over'.

There was an interesting social experiment on YouTube a while ago where a male & female actor were sat on a bench and began to have a verbal then violent domestic incident. When it was the male attacking the female - all the passers by helped out, split them up, grabbed hold of him, phoned the police etc. When it was the female attacking the male in the same way - the passers by just watched, laughed, filmed it on their phones. Probably why the male would be reluctant to seek help in that situation and just try and sweep it under the carpet.

You should also take into consideration other forms of violence towards each other. Harassment, character assassinations, criminal damages, thefts for example. The occurrences/reporting of these in a domestic setting tend to be more equal between males & females.

I might be wrong, but wasn't there a coronations street actress recently who smashed her ex-partners car up with a baseball bat - but it seemed to be reported in the media as something trivial.

@Toomanyradishes

This is a bit simplistic. I suspect there are many factors that will make a man stay. It may come as a surprise on MumsNet but a lot of men do actually love their children and enjoy being fathers, leaving puts that in jeopardy.

Doesnt come as a suprise at all given plenty of us had fathers who love us, sorry if are all supposed to be man haters on here but thats not actually the case..

But given domestic abusers (males ones) can manage to get the courts to give them access to their children I dont see how leaving an abusive situation means a man wont get to carry on being a father to their children. The courts are very keen on shared custody so I dont see that it does put it in jeopardy

I can see however that a person aith low self esteem who is being physically and potentially mentally and emotionally abused might feel like they wont get custody, howver that is just part and parcel of the same thing as i described

I mean, we take it seriously, I hope, when women are unable, or sometimes simply unwilling, to leave for emotional reasons. The latter is a lot more common than people sometimes like to believe.

Then there are financial reasons to stay. Or people who feel obligated.

And not wanting to leave kids with an abuser is a common reason for an abused spouse to stay. It's not just about "liking being a dad".

Absolutely @manginseam I think the co text of my oroginal post was important. I was specifically replyong to the OP to say that instead of teaching her son to use approved self defence moves WHEN he got into an abusive relationship, instead to model good relationships so that he doesnt end up in one.

My other point was that whilst men might not stay in an abusive relationship specifically because of fear of being killed etc, they are more likely to stay for emotional reasons. That was in no way to disparage those emotional reasons more as an example of why having a clear idea of what a good relationship is like is equally as important for a man as a woman. And it wasnt to imply women dont stay for emotional reasons either.

There are whole books wrotten on this subject, I am sure i am not able to bring every nuance in to each post but I did think the post I was answering had an MRA vibe of the women always get the children, thats what i was responding to

Men are fair on men.

Incorrect.

I think that for men who are victims of domestic violence against women, they often can find people don't believe them, or minimize it, or even make fun.

because women are always believed?
It is not right at all that any victims of partner violence are disbelieved. But it is down to the patriarchy: women are asked what they did to provoke an attack. Men are seen as "lesser" (because patriarchy where men have to be strong) if they are attacked by a woman (because women are weak according to patriarchy)

So fix patriarchy, fix a lot of the problems in one fell swoop.

@Toomanyradishes

Men are much more like.y to be able to physically leave if they are being abused by a woman, than women are if they are being abused by a man. So dont teach your son to just take it or only use proper self defence moves, teach him to walk away.

The reality is that, due to strength inbalance, men staying in domestic violence situatins are staying purely because they have issues with their self worth and understanding the kind of relationship they deserve. The best way to stop that from happening is not to tell your son how to defend himself if a woman does hit him, its modelling good relationships so he understands what good looks like and doesnt stick in a bad relationship because that kind of behaviour has been normalised.

It may also be helpful to get him to recognise red flags in a relationship, because violence is rarely the first issue, but again the easiest way is by having strong positive relationships so he has a baseline for what good is to measure against

"Violence is rarely the first issue" - indeed. All violent relationships are abusive and dysfunctional, even though not all dysfunctional relationships go as far as ending in violence.

Rather than teaching your son what to do at 'the end of the line ' ie use proper self defence once things turn violent, it would make more sense to model healthy relationships and teach hum about red flags for controlling and abusive behaviour. These always come first - Violence doesn't come from nowhere.

OP you do very much sound like you are still normalizing what happened in your relationship.

If you look into the statistics on males who were killed as a result of domestic violence: more than half the men who died, killed themselves after murdering their partners or they were killed by the cops. About 15% were killed by their partners ex or current boyfriend or spouse. About 10% were male children killed by abuse. And a small % were killed by the woman defending herself. So the figures are not remotely the same as for females killed as a result of domestic violence. It is a very gendered crime.

It does turn out that he ended up being incredibly emotionally and physically abusive in the end and social services said I was only 'reacting to my surroundings' which I actually believe to be true.
So it seems the people who were working with you probably could see what was going on pretty clearly. Perhaps more so than yourself at the time - not surprising with conditioning or maybe even gaslighting?

However if a woman was repeatedly attacking my son let's say when he's older for example constantly punching him and he hits her back i would be RAGING. But why are you assuming the reaction would be the same in what you suggest is a different scenario?

I've been pondering the thread title. Yes, the world is unfair for men.*

Why is it? patriarchy. It is unfair for most men because of other men.

• it is unfair for women and children too.

Why is it? patriarchy. It is unfair for most men because of other men.

It's unfair for men because of women, too. And it's unfair for women because of men, and also, because of women.

From being in the workplace, the saddest truth I discovered about humanity is that people do not care about other people outside of their family and closest friends. No one cares when a stranger collapses in the street.

Bollocks. Men run everything and have done for freaking ever. And anyone who disputes that isn't understanding at all how the world works.

Also you have met the worst of humanity. I have seen plenty of instances of people helping people they don't even know.

All men or some men - run everything?

The majority of people who are unemployed are men
The majority of people who are homeless are men
The majority of people who are in jail are men
The majority of people who suffer from mental health problems are men
The majority of people who commit suicide are men
The majority of people who do less well at school are men
The majority of people who die in wars are men
The majority of people who are victims of violent crime are men

I think what people do is to take a group of very successful men and use that as the benchmark for everyone else.

you didn't read what i wrote in your haste to be a penis protector.

whatever.

You wrote:

"Bollocks. Men run everything and have done for freaking ever"

My question as a response to this was - All men or some men?

Men in general. As a group. Clearly. Why this obsession with "not all men", as if you don't understand what is meant by the use of the word "men" in that sentence.

Because its not men in general.

Your argument is based on a tiny tiny percentage of hyper-successful men who are leaders of their country, or CEO's of companies like Amazon.

But you can't use this to be a true reflection of 'men in general' without taking into consideration the list above.

The majority of people who are in jail are men
Why do people go to jail?

The majority of people who are victims of violent crime are men
Who perpetrates the violent crime?