Why would a woman say she's not a feminist?

[Mum2021askingquestion]

I recently made a new friend. Today, over a playdate with our daughters, she told me twice and in very strong terms that she's not a feminist.

I don't understand what she means by this.

Some vague background...

She is in her 30s with two children, one of each sex. Her husband, from what she's told me and the little from when I met him, is one of the good guys. They both work, both full time I think and my assumption is their salaries are fairly equal (I know their job titles and they're approx equivalent levels of seniority).

We've talked around some men being useless and others being decent, both regarding housework, childcare, and general behaviour. We seemed well aligned on this.

I didn't feel quite brave enough to say 'what on earth do you mean you're not a feminist? What part of feminism puts you off?' but I might next time we're chatting.

I've shared a few things with her which implicitly give the impression I'm a feminist, or at least for a modern equality between the sexes compared with old fashioned views of eg husband being in charge in a marriage and she wholeheartedly agreed.

I don't think this is anything to do with gender vs sex etc, I'm pretty sure this one isn't hugely on her radar.

Her daughter has been subject to low level bullying which relates to her being a girl and she was a strong advocate for her at school, we both agreed the boy needed a message this isn't OK just as much as the girl needed support.

Does anyone have a friend who would claim not to be a feminist who can shed any light on this? This is not a family where the man supports them both and the woman stays at home, that isn't their values. I'm confused.

She's a really interesting, warm, funny person and I'd like to stay friends with her. It just threw me.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

I must say I never understand the idea that because some randoms on the Internet say that you are wrong and can't be a feminist, that you must agree with them and give up the descriptor.

I never understand why feminists, particularly MN feminists (I've never experiencedthis IRL), tell women that they cant be feminists at all, describe them as anti-woman or "cancer on feminism". How does it benefit women and feminism to be gatekeepers?

[Enough4me]

Sadly some do sit judgment, but there is no way that gatekeeping can happen for abstract nouns, which the word feminist is and it's not a physical tangible thing to lock away; it's more like an identifying label.

Feminists can value women having rights, and be told they are not feminists as X, Y or Z, but that doesn't stop them wanting women to have rights and their ideas fit the label. Likewise people can take a feminist stance in behaviour, but not the label if they don't want it.

Unfortunately there are those who gleefully take the label and clearly would stamp all over women and women's rights. Some of these are great at mansplaining feminist views, e.g. on Twitter, and how to women properly, other times it's other women putting women down 🙄

[LobsterNapkin]

This article made me think of this thread:

unherd.com/2021/11/the-sexual-revolution-killed-feminism/

To those well-meaning progressives who argue “you can’t be a feminist and not be for freedom”, I say: wake up. The agenda you ushered in is now the stuff of nightmares. To those on the Right who say “feminism got us here; you’ve made your bed ladies, now lie in it” I say: I get where you’re coming from, but don’t be stupid. You might enjoy watching trans activism abolish sex dimorphism, to own the feminists, but the ideology is coming for your kids too.
I think her main thesis is a big part of the reason I'm very blase about the title of feminist, although Harrington accepts the title. It's been too caught up with a kind of radical individualism I don't think is a good or even rational starting point. And because it takes it as a starting point, the whole discussion is often based on assumptions I'm not in agreement with.

[KayKayWat]

@LobsterNapkin

This article made me think of this thread:

unherd.com/2021/11/the-sexual-revolution-killed-feminism/

To those well-meaning progressives who argue “you can’t be a feminist and not be for freedom”, I say: wake up. The agenda you ushered in is now the stuff of nightmares. To those on the Right who say “feminism got us here; you’ve made your bed ladies, now lie in it” I say: I get where you’re coming from, but don’t be stupid. You might enjoy watching trans activism abolish sex dimorphism, to own the feminists, but the ideology is coming for your kids too.
I think her main thesis is a big part of the reason I'm very blase about the title of feminist, although Harrington accepts the title. It's been too caught up with a kind of radical individualism I don't think is a good or even rational starting point. And because it takes it as a starting point, the whole discussion is often based on assumptions I'm not in agreement with.

Are you saying that modern feminism paved the path for the TRAs? I certainly think so. Before you trans lobby were trying to get people cancelled and reporting people to their employers the group most likely to do this type of thing was feminists. I believe intersectional feminism definitely played a strong part in solidifying the whole identity politics things which eventually resulted in identities becoming completely separated from individual biological reality.

[LadyoftheWoods]

Meanings of words change as society changes and for some people "being a feminist" is more than just your values. It implies you do something as well. If you claim to be a feminist there's sometimes an assumption you are involved in the surrounding activism and many people who believe in equality for women don't read feminist literature/ actively campaign/ get into twitter spats.

It's sort of irrelevant what the word actually means, most people know what it means, it's what it signifies in today's society and whether people want to be claiming themselves as part of it.

[LobsterNapkin]

Are you saying that modern feminism paved the path for the TRAs? I certainly think so. Before you trans lobby were trying to get people cancelled and reporting people to their employers the group most likely to do this type of thing was feminists. I believe intersectional feminism definitely played a strong part in solidifying the whole identity politics things which eventually resulted in identities becoming completely separated from individual biological reality.

I'm not sure that's what Harrington is saying, especially in that quote. She is essentially saying that feminism was really undermined when it hooked up with the sexual revolution and liberal individualism. That the underlying individualist assumption - which everyone adopted it seemed, not just feminists - affected the way feminists saw the problems of women, and also the way they imagined the solutions. It was all within this individualist set of constructs which finally led it to a dead end.

She does imply that gender ideology is in some sense a logical result of that individualism within feminism as well. But I don't think she sees that as the only possible feminism.

I would agree generally with your point that TRAs didn't make up the playbook they use to get their way. They borrowed it from other rights movements, and I'd certainly include feminism. Feminism doesn't have to function as identity politics but it often has taken up that kind of thinking.

[KayKayWat]

Yes, I may have generalised a bit as 'feminism' is a pretty subjective term to be fair. Well, maybe not so much the term but the assumed beliefs of those who adopt it.

[YeahImThatB]

For the life of me I couldn’t post a picture, so here is the link to the screenshot that I found, that really drives home the point why I don’t find it important whether or not a woman is a feminist or not.
Also one of the reasons I don’t like liberal feminist.

www.reddit.com/r/fourthwavewomen/comments/qmd8xw/you_know_there_is_a_problem_when_bottom_tier_men/

[TooBigForMyBoots]

It's up to you if you're view of other feminists is influenced by an anonymous misogynists on the internet @YeahImThatB. But he doesn't speak for liberal feminism or for women.

Liberal feminism has an actual meaning. A Random Bloke On SM does not define it.

[YeahImThatB]

Not just this random person.
It just highlighted libfems perfectly.

[UnsuitableHat]

What an interesting thread. I wonder this sometimes too. I think resisting labels is a big factor- the perception that as soon as you declare yourself to ‘be’ something, someone will be along to tell you you’re not a good enough version of it.
Plus, not wanting to be associated with a stereotype - militant, bra burning, man hating etc. I have a friend who once said she couldn’t be a feminist because ‘I like the door held open for me’.
Perhaps some women (mistakenly?) feel that the ideology is a bit alien to their lives and experiences.

[YeahImThatB]

It is so strange how the stereotype of man hating feminists lives on and on.

Personally I went to look for women/feminist who were done with men’s shit and had stopped centering them in their lives.

But what all I found was the libfems, who panders to men in the name of feminism.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

Personally I went to look for women/feminist who were done with men’s shit and had stopped centering them in their lives.

You see I would never want SAHMs to feel excluded by feminism. Or any woman.🤷‍♀️

[Notahandmaid]

Not read the thread but is it worth asking her next time the subject comes up, 'do you not believe in equal rights and opportunities for women then?'

I personally would be very disappointed in a friend who tried hard to make it clear that she wasn't a feminist. I have friends who I'm sure don't identify as such. One older friend of mine a couple of years ago told me that she would be happy not to have the vote and for her husband to vote for them both!

[Notahandmaid]

I have had friends over the years who would have distanced themselves from the term 'feminist'. When I was raging about inequality 20 years ago, they probably looked at me as if I was a little mad. I've noticed that a couple have girls now and are starting to post things on social media that I was talking about 20 years ago. It feels as if the penny's dropped for them.

It would be nice not to think that we need feminism anymore but sadly we do - in this country and in particularly in countries like Afghanistan.

[KayKayWat]

Not read the thread but is it worth asking her next time the subject comes up, 'do you not believe in equal rights and opportunities for women then?'

We already know from studies that 93% of women believe in equality but don't want to be called feminists.

I think part of the issue is that a lot of 'feminists' nowadays are basically just whingers taking their problems out on men in the same way that some layabouts blame their joblessness on "Polish taking all the jobs innit".

Feminists were once strong but many nowadays spend all their time online moaning to each other how they can't do xyz 'because men'. Genuinely driven women who refuse to be held back want nothing to do with this negative Nancy mindset or to be given lists of reasons why they can't achieve their objectives.

[Notahandmaid]

The stat you quote might be true but I think you're being a bit harsh on feminists there!

[KayKayWat]

I think it's fairly accurate of what I've seen on here over the past few years.

[KayKayWat]

Replace 'men' with 'black people' in these previous thread titles and you'll see why many women now find it offensive.

Sadly, discriminating against men is somewhat accepted like racism used to be but the tide is changing as reflected by recent surveys.

[KayKayWat]

Somebody will no doubt point out that most of the above are in Relationships not Feminism Chat, but it's feminism that has validated these kind of views and made it ok to say "I hate men" but not "I hate women" or "I hate black people".

[EdmontinaDancesWithOphelia]

Actually, I find your 13.30 post pretty offensive, KayKayWat. There is no possible, contextual comparison between ‘men’ and ‘black people’ in the way you suggest. It really might be better if you do not utilise ‘black people’ to further your agenda - whatever that might be.

[Notahandmaid]

Yes - agree @EdmontinaDancesWithOphelia - some odd posts from someone on a feminism board!

[TooBigForMyBoots]

Exactly, they are in Relationships rather than Feminism @KayKayWat. It is a forum where women post about problems and other women, many who would not call themselves feminist, give input. MiL's and SiLs are regarded just as little as men on that board so I don't agree that it is discriminatory on the basis of sex.

However feminism may be, at least partly, responsible for women being able to voice concerns and act upon them.

[SunshineInMyTea]

Why would feminist have to take time to heal the men?

Even just this thread is full of women saying poor men.
Where are these evil man-haters, and so what if they did?
Women have no power over men.
Except when they choose not to date/fuck/marry/procreate with them.


Current feminist movement is a joke:

Toxic hook-up culture, shaming women who don’t.
Violent sex, everything must go, perfect for abusive men.

”Toxic masculinity” so men don’t have to take responsibility.

Slut walks, vagina hats, free the nipples…
Gross.

Also I really don’t like how straight/with kids women are put on a pedastal.
They are doing what society want them to do.
What more do they want?

How can anyone, but feminist in particular support porn and prostotution?

Libfems offers horrible, misogynistic, abusive men the perfect disguise.

We should be more supportive towards women coming ACTUALLY independent and strong.
Embrace and support single and childfree women.
Move away from conventional lifestyles.

[KayKayWat]

I stand by my point that 'maleness' is the only protected characteristic that it's socially acceptable to openly deride. "I hate disabled people" wouldn't be allowed either.

The backstory is irrelevant. Fact is, you can create a thread called "I hate men" but not the same about any other protected characteristic. The fact that a fraction of a percent of men murder their partners doesn't make it ok to discriminate against half of society IMO, and it seems the vast majority of us feel that way.