Why would a woman say she's not a feminist?

[Mum2021askingquestion]

I recently made a new friend. Today, over a playdate with our daughters, she told me twice and in very strong terms that she's not a feminist.

I don't understand what she means by this.

Some vague background...

She is in her 30s with two children, one of each sex. Her husband, from what she's told me and the little from when I met him, is one of the good guys. They both work, both full time I think and my assumption is their salaries are fairly equal (I know their job titles and they're approx equivalent levels of seniority).

We've talked around some men being useless and others being decent, both regarding housework, childcare, and general behaviour. We seemed well aligned on this.

I didn't feel quite brave enough to say 'what on earth do you mean you're not a feminist? What part of feminism puts you off?' but I might next time we're chatting.

I've shared a few things with her which implicitly give the impression I'm a feminist, or at least for a modern equality between the sexes compared with old fashioned views of eg husband being in charge in a marriage and she wholeheartedly agreed.

I don't think this is anything to do with gender vs sex etc, I'm pretty sure this one isn't hugely on her radar.

Her daughter has been subject to low level bullying which relates to her being a girl and she was a strong advocate for her at school, we both agreed the boy needed a message this isn't OK just as much as the girl needed support.

Does anyone have a friend who would claim not to be a feminist who can shed any light on this? This is not a family where the man supports them both and the woman stays at home, that isn't their values. I'm confused.

She's a really interesting, warm, funny person and I'd like to stay friends with her. It just threw me.

Feminism is used so broadly though. Describing yourself as 'a feminist' can mean almost anything about your actual views. I think people also expect accusations of not being good enough to claim the label, and people picking over their life choices to decide if they agree they can say they're a feminist.

I think there is a large number of people who feel happy enough with the position of women in society and don't see a feminist analysis as helpful. The thing that made me much less likely to call myself a feminist a few years ago was closeness to men who were suffering in various ways and a genuine belief that rerunning the same arguments as 1972 when society has demonstrably changed is pointless.

I do call myself a feminist now. I'm more aware of specific violence against women. I still don't have a very sophisticated analysis or a list of political changes im looking for. It's not surprising to ne that younger women like eg Carrie Symons might reject the label.

I don't think of myself as very feminist. Most people have the view that they are just angry extremists. The more I read about it all the more interested I am, I support most of the feminist views, I mean how can you not? but I would never announce myself as one.

Recent thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/4374632-menopause-trainer-not-a-feminist?msgid=111619029

Sounds like 'I'm not a feminist, but...'

If you equate it grammatically with 'I'm not a racist, but...', it means 'I don't like the disapproval society has for feminists, but I have a lot of feminist opinions'.

Obviously racists and feminists are totally different. I'm talking about syntax.

I wonder if some people feel feminism is a belief that you just walk about holding and others think its a movement or action and its something you go about doing. So a lot of people might believe all sorts of feminist beliefs but not consider themselves feminist because they dont call out sexism at work or run a domestic abuse shelter

Well this is a depressing thread

What I’ve taken from the responses is that op apparently shouldn’t even think about basing her friendships on shared values and beliefs (why on earth not??) and so many women really still have swallowed the cup of internalised misogyny and subjugation.

Feminism is about equal rights and the protection of women and girls.

If you don’t support that then that’s your right. But so many people are saying here that they do but then aren’t feminists. It’s so odd.

I think it’s mostly fear of being seen as a difficult woman which is a terrible thing for a woman to be seen to be.

I find this position really annoying because you’ve all massively benefited from all the work and risks g that other women have taken and you do them a real disservice

@Oblomov21

I don't think of myself as very feminist. Most people have the view that they are just angry extremists. The more I read about it all the more interested I am, I support most of the feminist views, I mean how can you not? but I would never announce myself as one.

OMG I hope this isn't true. How depressung.

I'm ancient. Marched for women's rights back in the 70s. Has it really come to this?

Feminism is about equal rights and the protection of women and girls

Totally agree, @FFSFFSFFS !!

As Permanent says: I think there is a large number of people who feel happy enough with the position of women in society and don't see a feminist analysis as helpful.
I think this is true and points to the lens of feminist analysis as key. If I and "women like me" were my only point of reference, I might imagine feminism would ask more of me than it would offer.
But because I wasn't always as I am now, and because what happens to women globally, as a sex class, is important to me, I find feminism a useful and supportive framework.
I see parallels with environmentalism; once the effects of the climate emergency are considered as already occurring on a global scale, already impacting real people's lives, it seems odd not to feel inclined to align oneself with greener thinking.

I think feminism can be confused with man hating. There is a small sub-section that do and they can be the voices that are amplified.

Margaret Atwood once equated the term feminism with Christianity when asked by a journo if she were feminist and pointed out there were many denominations. I agree and think people's perception of what a feminist is can be skewed by a firebrand few.

The point about it not being seen as feminist to be a SAHM is also nonsense really. It was women who campaigned for better maternity and infant care and indeed provided it for other women. It was a woman who campaigned for family allowances. Women have argued about the value of unpaid labour and the need for this to be recognised as part of economic productivity. And so on. Feminism in the past was not just about ensuring women are represented fairly in the workplace, in civic and public life but about ensuring that they were protected as mothers, had equal access to divorce and to the custody of their children and to maintenance on divorce. That’s before you also start to thing about campaigns against domestic violence, support for women experiencing stillbirth and miscarriage and the provision of adequate childcare facilities.

Do people who are not feminist or disavow that word think that all of the above were just given to women and not fought for? Or that they could not just as easily be taken away if women don’t pay attention and keep campaigning for their rights, not just to be equal but as women and mothers (this is already happening)?

But that's all the more reason to be one IMO and not let a few minority voices hijack the conversation.

If you don’t support that then that’s your right. But so many people are saying here that they do but then aren’t feminists. It’s so odd.

I've chatted with women who label themselves feminists who say things like 'I shout at men if they hold a door open for me'. Personally I like it when a man holds open a door for me and I don't want to align myself to those women who hold such views. You can support equal rights for women and girls and also still like a simple, polite act of holding a door open without feeling it is a belittling gesture.

And yes, FFS, absolutely.

I grew up with a sister (no brothers) and we were always told that we could do or be anything so I thought the battle was won because my sex never held me back. I had one maths teacher who believed girls couldn’t do maths (in the 80s!) but we all saw him as just a dinosaur and my response was to work and work so I beat all the boys and proved him wrong.
I then had 2 daughters myself and, when they were early primary school age, a work colleague called me a feminist. I said I didn’t really see myself as a feminist. I believed in equality for everyone.
Now my daughters are teenagers and I see the utter shit the have to put up with - controlling boyfriends, worrying about their appearance, being told they’re not good enough, being talked down to and over by boys. I’ve found my feminism and will fight with everything in me. Your friend may just not have realised how much feminism is still needed. I would have welcomed a further conversation with my colleague, who dropped it as soon as I said I didn’t see myself as a feminist because I hadn’t really thought about it till then, but it never came up again. You may have got your friend thinking about it but I would wait till she brings it up again.

Thanks for all your opinions, as always it's interesting and enlightening to hear from people outside my social / political bubble. I moved house fairly soon before covod hit so haven't had a chance to make as many friends where I live as I would have liked, so I tend to see mostly my own family (mum very definitely feminist, dad claims to be an ally) and am in touch virtually with old friends many of whom I share a large overlap with on issues like this.

Just wanted to clarify that I wasn't saying being a sahm was not a feminist choice. Just that in general women / families who have made that choice have more skin in the game of saying 'I enjoy my more traditional values way if life so I can't call myself a feminist as it doesn't align'. Whereas someone who earns an equal contribution to the household, and is married to a man who does a broadly equal amount of the housework and childcare to my mind has less to gain from dismissive feminism. I am sure I worded that badly and some will take offence and rip my wording apart but 🤷‍♂️

To the pp who was honest enough to share that they wouldn't have called themself a feminist before coming to this thread because they'd find it hard to argue for feminist beliefs, I totally understand this!

And I'm very interested indeed that as far as I can see from a quick scroll, the main (only?) reasonpp have given for not calling themselves feminists is a desire to distance themselves from a label they view as uncool / undesirable / hateful, rather than a distancing from any actual feminist views. That is a really key nugget of insight IMO.

Looks like we feminists have a huge uphill battle in terms of rebranding if we're going to bring the next generation of young women with us.

Maybe in this current climate of repurposing and redefining words, paired with a current feeling that 'something has to change' there is a need for a movement with a new name?

Though the cynical old hag in me feels sure that the right wing media and probably left leaning too will twist and smear any label we come up with to ensure as few people as possible want to organise together to fight for change.

I'm off for a bath to shave my hairy feminist legs... Really appreciate your time giving me your views MNers

I never call myself a feminist. This stems mostly from being a student and seeing the feminist society, comprised entirely of women studying sociology, psychology, English and any other subject that was 90% female while I was doing engineering, having been the only girl doing technical subjects at school. They talked a good talk from their cosy female environment but I couldn’t relate to their vilification of men and that rather than taking opportunities traditionally in male arenas they wanted them to be given to them. They were so passively angry. This used to really annoy me. However, I have a more balanced view now and if someone asked me outright if I was a feminist I would probably say yes. Times have changed and the issues are different.

The women I know who aren't feminists are catholic. They believe a woman's place is in the home.

Usually when someone says they’re not a feminist to me, I ask “what do you mean by that?” Or just “you don’t believe in equal rights for women?”

My ex boss once said she had “issues” with a few employees being feminists in the past, because they “didn’t understand” her husband. After witnessing him yelling at her a bunch and marching into our work space to ask when she was gonna start cooking his dinner, I started to understand a bit more.

But then again, some people believe that “feminist” is something you do, and don’t feel comfortable describing themselves as such if they’re not currently involved in some kind of activism. I’ve known people like that before.

I genuinely don’t understand how any woman in our society could not be a feminist. Utterly baffling to me

I wouldn't usually consider myself a feminist. I'm not really on the same page in terms of the development of feminism, and it's underlying assumptions, in the mid-20th century. Around economics in particular. I think it's had a tendency to cut out the voices of a large proportion of women, quite deliberately, calling them things like handmaidens when they don't toe the line about what they are supposed to think, and I find that pretty disturbing. I think it has some huge gaps where it comes to motherhood. I think sometimes it can be myopic, assuming certain issues are about women when they are actually manifestations of something larger, which means it's proposed solutions in those areas can be poorly directed.

I believe in justice for everyone, a society that recognizes the needs of all and tries to balance them, I believe that all human beings are, in their humaness, worthy of respect and love and society should work to create that way of life. I think women should be supported in things that are unique to them as women, specifically reproductive role. I think women talking together about being women is important.

Calling myself a feminist seems beside the point in most cases and sometimes give the impression that is inaccurate.

I think the term ‘feminist’ is broad and means different things to different people. Some will argue ‘well no, it clearly means…’ - and then someone will come along and disagree. She may actually be what some people would call a feminist - even what you OP call a feminist - but that doesn’t align with her own definition of feminist so she doesn’t identify as such.
It’s not about labelling - it’s about how you’re actually living your life. Sounds like she’s got it together so why care?

Because western liberal feminism would put a lot of women off.

I think,it is totally appropriate to ask this question OP.I have come across women who said this.I found that is usually women who are completely not interested in politics in general.I aslo think, they tend to be on the "doormatish" side or if their partner/husband is one of the "good guys" they think it would not be "fair" to call themselves a feminist.I always find it disappointing if a woman feels the need to say she is not a feminist.

..and after all,it was the feminists battles that gave women the rights they enjoy today(not all battles have been won yet!).so many women today are totally unaware what life was like as a woman only 50 years ago.so, saying you are not a feminist is an insult to the women who fought for your rights!

Does supporting feminism mean you also support open boarders and globalism are they are somehow linked supposedly.