Why would a woman say she's not a feminist?

[Mum2021askingquestion]

I recently made a new friend. Today, over a playdate with our daughters, she told me twice and in very strong terms that she's not a feminist.

I don't understand what she means by this.

Some vague background...

She is in her 30s with two children, one of each sex. Her husband, from what she's told me and the little from when I met him, is one of the good guys. They both work, both full time I think and my assumption is their salaries are fairly equal (I know their job titles and they're approx equivalent levels of seniority).

We've talked around some men being useless and others being decent, both regarding housework, childcare, and general behaviour. We seemed well aligned on this.

I didn't feel quite brave enough to say 'what on earth do you mean you're not a feminist? What part of feminism puts you off?' but I might next time we're chatting.

I've shared a few things with her which implicitly give the impression I'm a feminist, or at least for a modern equality between the sexes compared with old fashioned views of eg husband being in charge in a marriage and she wholeheartedly agreed.

I don't think this is anything to do with gender vs sex etc, I'm pretty sure this one isn't hugely on her radar.

Her daughter has been subject to low level bullying which relates to her being a girl and she was a strong advocate for her at school, we both agreed the boy needed a message this isn't OK just as much as the girl needed support.

Does anyone have a friend who would claim not to be a feminist who can shed any light on this? This is not a family where the man supports them both and the woman stays at home, that isn't their values. I'm confused.

She's a really interesting, warm, funny person and I'd like to stay friends with her. It just threw me.

Completely agree with with @LobsterNapkin. There is a danger that some posters on some of the feminist boards patronise and name call women to chase away posters who hold different views. I too hate the use of the term handmaid. This is used to put down women, including Margaret Atwood even though she was the first contemporary author to use it.I( know Mary uses it in the New Testament originally.)
Feminism is constantly changing to reflect the needs of women. It shouldn't be about excluding some women because they don't match up to some posters view about feminist ideals. Feminism should be inclusive not exclusive.

I didn't feel quite brave enough to say 'what on earth do you mean you're not a feminist? What part of feminism puts you off?' but I might next time we're chatting.

That sounds an excellent way to put your friend's back up - put her on the defensive and make her justify why she doesn't see a political ideology the way you do. If someone did that to me it would be the immediate end of our friendship.

OTOH, if someone said "I'm curious. Why don't you see yourself as a feminist?" I would explain. No harm; no foul.

I think that it depends on the definition of feminism, really.

I think if the definition is ‘everyone should be treated equally’, very few women would disagree.

On the other hand, if it is about all the world’s problems being caused by men, and the overthrow of the ‘patriarchy’, then many will disagree.

A lot of women don’t like the victim label and are proud to be independent and feel they can compete on equal terms with men, and enjoy male company.

There are so many strands of feminism, though, but I can see why a woman would not identify with some of what she reads on here.

@TheReluctantPhoenix

I think that it depends on the definition of feminism, really.

I think if the definition is ‘everyone should be treated equally’, very few women would disagree.

On the other hand, if it is about all the world’s problems being caused by men, and the overthrow of the ‘patriarchy’, then many will disagree.

A lot of women don’t like the victim label and are proud to be independent and feel they can compete on equal terms with men, and enjoy male company.

There are so many strands of feminism, though, but I can see why a woman would not identify with some of what she reads on here.

Nicely put.

I don’t understand why you think you think you have to bring young women with you into the feminist battle. I really would like to know what you actually plan to do in this regard.

Also it is not clear why you think the feminists need rebranding.

I am now in my mid 70s and have huge respect for those on frontline who have made such changes on behalf of others. One of the greatest achievements is not labelling women.

I don't know that I'd describe myself as a feminist either, though possibly saying that I was definitely NOT one, might be going too far as well. It doesn't mean that I don't want equality for women. But I think labelling myself as such would imply that I'm taking action about it in some greater way than I really am, and would feel no right to that identity, because I probably do go along with various things that I could do something about but don't. I don't know enough, can't argue back well enough, don't always have the right opinions, don't even fit in posting in this forum despite reading it often. And there remains this feeling that i'd be jumped on if I tried to say I was a feminist, because of things I don't do, or that I'd be accused of being a hypocrite. So I doubt I'd want to label myself in that way. There are different definitions of feminism, and it's not a minefield I particularly want to get in to, without feeling that I'd have to know a lot more about exactly what people think it means.

But it doesn't mean I don't share a lot of the same values as someone who would actively use that label.
In short, I think that for many people, declaring oneself to be a feminist or not is not necessarily the same thing as actually holding feminist views or not.

By the time I started to pay attention to feminism it was this horrible man pandering liberal feminism.
Empowering women with porn and stipping, hooking up with strangers and violent sex, free nipples and twerking in g-strings. Pussy hats.
They came off as unhinged.

I do not want this kind of world.
I believe women distancing themselves from male centric society.
Be independent and free.

Now all they shout is how feminism is for men, how men also suffer.
And men still aren’t happy. They still have hirrible things to say about feminist.

I tried to find feminist places, but it’s hard to find women who respect themselves.
This board on the other hand puts mothers high on the pedestal.
I don’t believe that women who has given birth are any better than childfree women.
So I don’t belong here either.
Also there is too much of nonsense about is makeup, shaving, changing last names etc. feminism?
Of course it’s not!
Yesterday there was a thread about the ”good husband”, they weren’t good.
How can a feminist have such a low bar?

Too many women still wants and need male approval, that why nothing will ever change.

Original feminist did amazing job, I am grateful of them.
Todays feminist, pathetic.

In due course you could ask her What is a feminist?

Her answer could explain it.

I’ve met some people who were so bolshy and nasty I couldn’t be around them. It was work related. So I had to be.

They called themselves feminists. They were just men-haters and haters-of-women-who-were-not-men-haters.

If your friend met the same ones I did it’s no wonder she doesn’t align herself with them.

I don’t describe myself as a feminist because of them too. I don’t want associated with that bile and hatred.

However I believe that we should all have the same rights whatever we are/look like/religion etc.

I do consider myself to be a bad feminist because so much about 4th wave feminism I really disagree with and I do think modern feminism has gone down some blind alleys. For example, the whole prostitution is just a type of work...disagree and to some that would make me not a feminist.

I guess you could have a feminism discussion with her at some point, but I’d wait until you were better friends.

It’s a label. It has no agreed meaning.
I don’t use it.

In fact in many people s minds, the label has negative connotations, so that’s another reason why I don’t use it. I prefer to discuss/debate the actual issues.

I’m not a feminist as imagined by some whose idea of feminism only really include one group of women, who champion the rights of one group of women. The type of feminism that cares not for the issues faced by women of colour and which actually drive agendas that compound the exclusion of women of colour.

So your idea of feminism may not appeal to her for all sorts of reasons but it does not mean that she accepts the abuse or discrimination of women.

I don't like to call myself a feminist even though I have many many feminism related values - that sounds like mumbo jumbo but I think you'll understand. Reason being feminism doesn't take into account me as a black woman. So I've said the words I am not a feminist and had looks of horror but it is what it is.

When the term was created it was created for white women. Women like me weren't on the agenda then. HTH.

This came up on another thread the other day, where the OP had been surprised when a woman giving company training about the menopause had announced she wasn't a feminist. The thread got quite heated, but the two sides' responses basically boiled down to:

1. Being a feminist just means being in favour of women having equal rights to men. So if you believe in that, you are de facto a feminist, whether you like calling yourself one or not. And if you say you're not a feminist, that implies you're against equality.

vs

2. Feminism doesn't just mean being pro equality. Maybe it used to, but it doesn't any more, it's more complicated than that. There are lots of feminists who have views I don't agree with, so I don't feel comfortable labelling myself 'feminist'. When I say I'm not a feminist, I do not mean I'm against equality for women.

Oh goodness. And I'm not fond of middle class women who call themselves feminists and know nothing about how lower class girls in poor areas get constantly touched up and harassed aaaalll the time.

I think the short answer is that the simple word feminism has become associated with so many different things that many people do not want to be tarred with. I think it has always been so tarnished, because from the start men took the piss out of anything that did not involve females being fully accessible as sex objects and domestic slaves. Look at the way this board has apparently been taken over by the trolls it always attracted. It's always been hard. Nevertheless a voice for women's rights and advocating for women's influence is needed more than ever as violence escalates everywhere. Take the label out and discuss the topic would be my advice.

Should also add that I am gc and would definitely be labelled as a terf if I shared my views publicly.

She's declaring that she doesn't like the label 'feminist'.
Some people just don't like labels...
There may be some elements of feminism that she does absolutely sign up to - you can see that in her actions. But if there are elements that she disagrees with then will feel that she doesn't want to apply that whole label to herself.
I wouldn't call myself a feminist - I hate pitching myself under a banner as it feels like I then have to be answerable for a debate on the topic. Yet by my actions, the way I bring up my kids and the choices I make I would probably be also labelled by others as a feminist.

@Phyllis321

I genuinely don’t understand how any woman in our society could not be a feminist. Utterly baffling to me

Feminist means different things to different people.

Years ago on this site, different user name, I went on the feminism boards. I was torn to shreds as I didn't always subscribe to their views. I found it 'my way or the highway'.

Sometimes feminists are their own enemy

@lazylinguist

This came up on another thread the other day, where the OP had been surprised when a woman giving company training about the menopause had announced she wasn't a feminist. The thread got quite heated, but the two sides' responses basically boiled down to:

1. Being a feminist just means being in favour of women having equal rights to men. So if you believe in that, you are de facto a feminist, whether you like calling yourself one or not. And if you say you're not a feminist, that implies you're against equality.

vs

2. Feminism doesn't just mean being pro equality. Maybe it used to, but it doesn't any more, it's more complicated than that. There are lots of feminists who have views I don't agree with, so I don't feel comfortable labelling myself 'feminist'. When I say I'm not a feminist, I do not mean I'm against equality for women.

What does 2) mean? What views that mainstream feminists have be views that women don't want to be associated with?

I think how a woman is introduced to feminism is important. If my only experience of feminism was Mumsnet FWR I wouldn't describe myself as a feminist. Fortunately I was a feminist long before I came here.

@sexesam

I would label myself as an equalitist not a femanist most because there are too many woman out there that claim to be femanists but actually want female superiority or preferencial treatment. I also think that too many so called femanists don't like when a woman chooses to be a mother and house person when surly the whole point of femanism was the right to choice and equal opportunities. I walk the walk and talk the talk in a very male dominated environment if that makes a difference. I am also a mother and the bread winner.

This. Although I agree with both sexes having equality etc. I find in practice reading some of the threads on this board many women who label themselves as "feminists" see themselves as superior and are not supportive of women making different choices to themselves. They do indeed look down on sahms and are often extremely intolerant of other points of views. Furthermore, as a woman from an ethnic minority background I don't relate to a lot of the ideas here. They wax lyrical about equality, but aren't at all supportive of women from different cultural backgrounds. Rather, they look down on them. The brand of feminism here is very western or Euro-centric.

I guess to sum it up, I feel that feminism should be about supporting women all round. But a lot of the feminism I see is more about pushing a certain way of living, because it comes from a very specific cultural viewpoint.

So for that reason, I don't think it would be right to call myself a feminist?

The issue is feminism can mean many things to different people. Some views are very extreme and confusingly enough, polar opposites. It will depend to what kind of feminism or activism she has been exposed to and whether she could relate to it or not for various reasons.

I used to say I wasn't one years ago and had many debates (friendly) with a friend that called herself one. Funnily enough our views were very similar and I actually swapped to her school of thought more and more. She never pushed me to say I am one, or question it massively we just talked . Now I do call myself one, and more importantly I don't give a shit if someone else thinks I'm the "right" kind of not.

So for example, on this thread comments like

"Women who don't describe themselves as feminists must be more on the doormatish side of the relationship."

"They are just aligning themselves with the patriarchy to be more secure"

I mean so many assumptions! And the inherent sense of superiority that these comments reek of just puts me off. If this is what feminism means (behaving like a tw*t) then, no thanks.

Ah, yes. On another thread women who refused to label themselves as feminists were called (by a woman) "thick as shit" and told they "should get into the sea" and various other lovely things.

If someone asked me if I believe that men and women should be treated equally my answer would be "yes. Of course." But that would not be my answer if someone asked if I am a feminist as I view feminism as a political ideology and I do not subscribe to any political ideologies. Nor do I support any particular political party. And, lastly, I do not wish to label myself or to be labelled.

It baffles me why that is so difficult to understand. All that I can think is that there is some kind of comfort derived from putting people in boxes and making them conform to a set of ideas and standards.

@TooBigForMyBoots

I think how a woman is introduced to feminism is important. If my only experience of feminism was Mumsnet FWR I wouldn't describe myself as a feminist. Fortunately I was a feminist long before I came here.

Oh god, if that was my baptism into feminism I'd label myself as anti-feminist! The 'feminism' threads that pop up on active convos are full of obnoxious posters.

A large number of feminist (a significant minority at the very least, but higher on here) are very bigoted towards men. You can see it in the differing reaction to similar situations faced by each sex.

Mentally ill woman murders family member she’s a victim. Mentally ill man does the same and is a monster. Woman wants to keep some money secret she’s ‘sensible’, man wants to do the same he’s financially controlling, etc.

And most of us don’t believe all men should hang their heads in shame and self flagellate because of the small percentage of violent offenders who are mainly men. Lots of feminists seem to think that the 33 million men in the UK should all be judged by the 100 who murder their partners every year.