Why would a woman say she's not a feminist?

[Mum2021askingquestion]

I recently made a new friend. Today, over a playdate with our daughters, she told me twice and in very strong terms that she's not a feminist.

I don't understand what she means by this.

Some vague background...

She is in her 30s with two children, one of each sex. Her husband, from what she's told me and the little from when I met him, is one of the good guys. They both work, both full time I think and my assumption is their salaries are fairly equal (I know their job titles and they're approx equivalent levels of seniority).

We've talked around some men being useless and others being decent, both regarding housework, childcare, and general behaviour. We seemed well aligned on this.

I didn't feel quite brave enough to say 'what on earth do you mean you're not a feminist? What part of feminism puts you off?' but I might next time we're chatting.

I've shared a few things with her which implicitly give the impression I'm a feminist, or at least for a modern equality between the sexes compared with old fashioned views of eg husband being in charge in a marriage and she wholeheartedly agreed.

I don't think this is anything to do with gender vs sex etc, I'm pretty sure this one isn't hugely on her radar.

Her daughter has been subject to low level bullying which relates to her being a girl and she was a strong advocate for her at school, we both agreed the boy needed a message this isn't OK just as much as the girl needed support.

Does anyone have a friend who would claim not to be a feminist who can shed any light on this? This is not a family where the man supports them both and the woman stays at home, that isn't their values. I'm confused.

She's a really interesting, warm, funny person and I'd like to stay friends with her. It just threw me.

@Mum2021askingquestion in your OP, last sentence “and I’d like to stay friends with her”

I took that to mean you couldn’t / wouldn’t if she insisted she wasn’t a feminist. Apologies if I’ve misinterpreted that.

RockinHorse I respect that you're looking for an argument but I'm not going to give you one tonight.

You can believe what you want but I am 100% sure she did not say it to shut me up. She was telling me her own story about something and I was nodding along and it was something like 'I think xyz was really unfair. I'm not a feminist, but I really think bla something was unfair to the women'. Something like that.

I was a passive listener, and we hadn't discussed anything relating to feminism before this.

As I say - it was out of the blue and sat weirdly.

I'm sure you'll find someone else to bait if you keep trawling the boards, enjoy

Some women don’t like feminism because (some/most) men don’t like feminism.

And male approval is the highest prize in a patriarchal society.

Ahh, Russian I meant 'I don't want to piss her off by having an awkward conversation about a potentially prickly subject so I'm asking you instead'

Plenty of people I know seem to think feminists are extremists who hate men. They have a negative caricature in their mind, and since they aren't that, they aren't feminists. Those on the right also tend to lump us in with the authoritarian woke left. I had a discussion recently with someone about the attempted 'cancelling' of Dave Chappelle and she seemed to think that my objections to tired sexist jokes were just the same. It took repeated explanations for her to see the difference - I don't like sexist jokes or find them funny but I think comedians should be free to make them.

@Mum2021askingquestion my bad!! I think you’re doing the right thing by not questioning it. It probably is a case of not having a thorough understanding but as you say she’s lovely and you like her, I would try to look past it.

I would label myself as an equalitist not a femanist most because there are too many woman out there that claim to be femanists but actually want female superiority or preferencial treatment.
I also think that too many so called femanists don't like when a woman chooses to be a mother and house person when surly the whole point of femanism was the right to choice and equal opportunities.
I walk the walk and talk the talk in a very male dominated environment if that makes a difference. I am also a mother and the bread winner.

@sexesam I think you are what I would call a feminist, but your term sounds equally representative of women having equal rights.

I think women seeking superiority over men are not feminists but misandrists (sp?), while women not supporting other women's choices are not feminists but judgemental people.

RockinHorse I respect that you're looking for an argument but I'm not going to give you one tonight.

what a bizarre thing to take from my post. I said what I saw from your OP, not because I'm looking for a fight, but because you asked why she might have said that & I gave you my opinion as food for thought, not because I'm looking for a fight... weird

If you genuinely didn't lead the conversation that lead to her saying that, then fair enough, but just because you don't like a reply, it does not mean that, that person is looking for a fight 🙄

I'd drop her.
She hardly knows you but she's been quite firm in making the point that she doesn't believe in equality.
She's entitled to her beliefs but if they're not aligned with yours on something so fundamental, my guess is that if you did spend more time with here you'd find yourself very conflicted.

For me the word is meaningless. I have my views on issues that affect women. I don't need to call myself feminist to maintain those views or have to use "as a feminist " to hold my own in a debate.

I support the UK position on abortion; I support the Nordic Model; prostitution and pornography are harmful to women and society generally.

I've always worked full-time. I didn't change my name when I married. I don't do "wife- work". I always expected and it was always the case that childcare and parenting would be shared.

I find a lot of the radical feminist stance on here extremely depressing and reeking of negativity- the "it's terrible being a woman, but hey the patriarchy. Let's just keep on doing the "wife-work and carry on whinging about it"

That and the endless posts about body hatred and hatred of being a girl as if that were normal.

On the other hand there are plenty of women who trumpet how feminist they are- Sturgeon, that utter air- head Emma Watson, Laurie Penny, Ash Sarkar, almost every female Guardian columnist (special call out for the particular idiot who wrote the appalling article about the Cologne New Year attacks) None of whom, according to many posters on here are feminists.

Oh and comments like this

They (probably unconsciously) align themselves with the patriarchy to feel secure. Probably raised by and/or married to misogynists who keep them in their place

A perfect example of why a woman might not call herself a "feminist with its sweeping generalisations and the puffing up of the poster's own ego and putting down any woman who doesn't agree with her.

I’m a massive believer in women’s rights (I mean, obviously), very keen to protect our sex and stop the seeming erasure of women, I don’t do wife work, I’d like to think I’ve stopped the generational trend of women’s ‘roles’ in mine and my husbands families, but I wouldn’t describe myself as a feminist, I intensely dislike that term and what is associated with it.

People are odd @Mum2021askingquestion she might have feminist ideas but doesn't want to label herself, or she is just agreeing with you on some points and thinks something completely different. The important thing is you are a feminist. Can't force people, they will come round when they are ready

I do my best to combat the patriarchy when I can, but I can't identify with the feminism that presents on MN. Sometimes find the rhetoric very infantalising and unpleasant tbh. I guess I'd describe myself as a Liberal feminist but that doesn't often go down well on here.

It's not just about the view that "feminists" hate men. Many women think that feminists don't like other women much either.

*They (probably unconsciously) align themselves with the patriarchy to feel secure. Probably raised by and/or married to misogynists who keep them in their place

A perfect example of why a woman might not call herself a "feminist with its sweeping generalisations and the puffing up of the poster's own ego and putting down any woman who doesn't agree with her.*

If that's what you took from my post you have completely misunderstood what I was getting at. Many women brought up around 'traditional' men and their supporters would feel very unsafe challenging the status quo.

Do you not see your put down in that post @Hoesbeforebroes?

My guesses

They think feminists are all angry, hairy-armpitted harridans who hate men

They (probably unconsciously) align themselves with the patriarchy to feel secure. Probably raised by and/or married to misogynists who keep them in their place

I should have added the first part of your post. Do you really not see how patronising and condescending you sound?

Interesting that on the "Feminist Chat" board, everyone seems to be in a fair consensus that feminism and feminists are pretty shit really.

@PizzaBreath I'd be very interested to know what you're referring to specifically as being associated with the term "feminist" that you intensely dislike?

I don't think that feminism and feminists are pretty shit really. I love feminism. I am passionate about it. Feminism has strengthened my bond with women. I was taught it by women. It anchors me. I love it.

Feminism prioritises women. Women have enough on their plate without having to prioritise feminism too.

I don't consider myself to be feminist and might 'declare' it in a conversation if it came up. It's partly to do with labels and partly to do with my own beliefs. I don't like labels and the negative connotations associated with 'feminism'. I'm all for equality of the sexes and preserving single sex spaces, dislike the current rise of the trans agenda for no good reason other than to put women down.
However, I don't think "feminism" allows for women to have a choice in how they live their lives. I have seen and heard these questions/issues come up with regards to feminism:
"You can't be a feminist if you're a stay at home mum"
"You're putting women back generations by not working"
"Why's your partner not doing 50% of the housework?"
And so it continues.....
And although these scenarios don't apply to me, i intensely dislike when women are not allowed to make their own decisions for how they live their lives and instead are judged by other women for choosing a path that they themselves have not. If women were more supportive of other women to make their own choices and decisions instead of being judgemental I think we'd find far more "feminists".

I don't consider myself a feminist (or didn't before reading this thread). I rarely venture into the feminism boards on this site but I also think that I'm uneducated/unaware of what feminism truly means and I don't think I'm the only woman who falls into this category.

Of course I don't want to be paid less than a man to do the same job. Of course I don't want to be the cook/ cleaner/baby making machine while a husband lords around doing nothing (I'm rubbish at cleaning anyway, all chores are shared based on strengths in our house).

I kept my maiden name when I got married (I like my name/hate paperwork). No one outwardly has said anything although I do get Mrs husband's name sometimes but just role with it

If I entered a debate about feminism I feel as though I wouldn't be able to do so justifiably or confidently (I just don't know enough) so would not say I was a feminist to prevent that sort of situation and I think there are a few women that would be the same as me. Lack of full understanding at least for me is why I don't call myself a feminist.

This is just my ignorant perspective. I hope I didn't offend.

This is not a family where the man supports them both and the woman stays at home, that isn't their values

What does this mean? What does being a SAHM have to do with values? Can SAHMs not be feminists?

I don't think you are as much of a feminist as you think, OP.

I don't understand why it matters how she labels or doesn't label herself. You enjoy her company and feel yourself aligned with her. Maybe you give off a vibe that you are interested in feminism and she has no interest in talking about it. Maybe to her feminism has become something rabid rather than mainstream.
I don't think I've ever said I'm a feminist nor ever had a discussion with any of my friends over feminism (I don't think). But I believe in full social, economic, and political equality for women. I don't think I need to discuss it or declare to people I'm a feminist.