Why would a woman say she's not a feminist?

[Mum2021askingquestion]

I recently made a new friend. Today, over a playdate with our daughters, she told me twice and in very strong terms that she's not a feminist.

I don't understand what she means by this.

Some vague background...

She is in her 30s with two children, one of each sex. Her husband, from what she's told me and the little from when I met him, is one of the good guys. They both work, both full time I think and my assumption is their salaries are fairly equal (I know their job titles and they're approx equivalent levels of seniority).

We've talked around some men being useless and others being decent, both regarding housework, childcare, and general behaviour. We seemed well aligned on this.

I didn't feel quite brave enough to say 'what on earth do you mean you're not a feminist? What part of feminism puts you off?' but I might next time we're chatting.

I've shared a few things with her which implicitly give the impression I'm a feminist, or at least for a modern equality between the sexes compared with old fashioned views of eg husband being in charge in a marriage and she wholeheartedly agreed.

I don't think this is anything to do with gender vs sex etc, I'm pretty sure this one isn't hugely on her radar.

Her daughter has been subject to low level bullying which relates to her being a girl and she was a strong advocate for her at school, we both agreed the boy needed a message this isn't OK just as much as the girl needed support.

Does anyone have a friend who would claim not to be a feminist who can shed any light on this? This is not a family where the man supports them both and the woman stays at home, that isn't their values. I'm confused.

She's a really interesting, warm, funny person and I'd like to stay friends with her. It just threw me.

It’s so strange to read all these comments about women (feminist or not) being negative about men.
My personal experience has been women tiptoeing and being so carefull or just cooing around men.
Any conversation aroun womens issues, even if men are not around, are pretty much stopped.

So that is why I’m online trying to find spaces that doesn’t pander to men.
Impossible to find as you can see on this site.

@Charlize43 how could feminists discuss issues for women caused by a male dominated society without it seeming like negativity, victim mentality and so on? It seems like you're saying that the best way for women to address inequality is not to discuss it and to only address what they can change in their own individual life experience?

@Charlize43

Not really, I read that only 7% of women identify with feminism, which probably explains why the Women's Equality Party didn't get much traction.

If you value her friendship you'll accept her as she is.

I think the figure was 9% of women consider themselves feminists.

It sounds like the figures from this report from the Fawcett Society:

www.fawcettsociety.org.uk/Handlers/Download.ashx?IDMF=a9a69875-749a-4482-9a8b-5bffaafe3ee7

Page 10 being the relevant page. Two thirds of people agree with the aims of feminism (as put by this survey) but only 7% of women explicitly label themselves as a feminist. So a disparity between identifying with the label and agreement with the main aims of the movement.

it seems we are a nation of ‘hidden feminists’ with only 7% of people across the UK actually describing themselves as feminist.

Unsurprisingly women are more likely to be sympathetic to feminism (74%) and to identify as feminist (9%). The poll found that men very were supportive of equality of the sexes (86% of men wanting this for women in their lives) but perhaps predictably even less of them (only 4%) would identify as feminist.

From the Fawcett survey.

*AlfonsoTheUnrepetant

Witchcraftandhokum

I don't call myself a feminist anymore as I support trans rights.

I appreciate your honesty*

Thank you.

Charlize, I understand what you are saying to some extent but aren’t you fortunate you’ve had strong female role models and been encouraged to see the world so positively?

Many women in our society unfortunately have grown up with sexual, emotional and physical abuse by men (and yes sometimes women, but largely men) and they have learned a totally different message to you. In fact their beliefs and fears that ‘all men are potential rapists’ are wise and protective - as they may have experienced multiple sexual assaults.

I think we all have a responsibility to be involved in feminist activism for the sake of those women and our girls that may grow up with those experiences. Yes we want them to have strong examples and we should be them by honouring their experiences. When women are literally getting raped and murdered, still, in 2021, and there are often shockingly minimal consequences- we need to fucking act!

how many people on here have stated that they are scared of posting on the feminist boards as they in equal measure find them toxic patronising. I have seen curious women post some basic enquiry only to be dismissed out of hand and told to go and educate themselves. You see the same dominant posters spending pages and pages trying to point score off each other over who can regurgitate the latest feminist theory or namecheck some obscure author.

So very true

I feel that 'feminism' is to sexism what 'BLM' is to racism. Both are causes that the majority would support but the labels are a little diversive.

I'm not sure 90% of black people don't identify with BLM.

My boss, who is an extraordinarly successful self-made woman: a single mother who runs a business turning over several million, employs about 50 people and who by any meaningful standard walks the feminist walk, will frequently say things like: "I'm sorry this sounds a bit feminist, but...".

I haven't directly challenged her on this (she's my boss and I don't really want to pick a fight), but my impression is that she, like a lot of women, has a very two-dimensional and old-fashioned perspective on what feminism is which basically boils down to:

a) man hating
b) unattractive
c) prefers to live alone or without a man
d) possibly lesbian

I think a lot of women are feminists in practice but not in theory and I think the reasons for this are complex: partly they may be women who were brought up in the 70s when the dominant brand of feminism did have a strident flavour to it, their fathers would typically have kicked back against this and there would have been tension in their household as a direct result of their mothers' incipient or outright "feminism".

Add into the mix husbands or parthers who perhaps have less than progressive views and you can see why a lot of women may feel the need to be feminists by stealth.

I think also if you're single there's an instinctive tendency to want to tone things down because you want to avoid the "that's why you're single" riposte.

When I was on my own after the break-up of my marriage I definitely adopted a self-consciously softer persona when I was dating in order to not frighten the horses.

Depressing but I think for a lot of women it's self-protection.

There's still a long way to go before feminism is seen as the default choice.

But come on, it's pretty clear that there is a significantly higher than usual percentage of misanthropes and professional victims within feminist circles when compared to the rest of the populace. I find myself simultaneously smirking/rolling my eyes every time I read the common trope of "Oh, it's like 1984. We live in a dystopia!" Usually because a man in a dress said something on Twitter.

And of course most of these self proclaimed victims suppressed by the patriarchal dystopian regime are white middle class woman with a degree and professional job. Also, all the fixation on CEOs. I mean, they're undoubtedly mostly male but only represent a minutia of the population. Even most blokes haven't got a hope of becoming a CEO, which is why it sounds so privileged and first world. And meanwhile somewhere in Africa a woman can't breastfeed her baby due to malnutrition, and ISIL are blowing up entire girls schools whilst we talk about manspreading without even acknowledging it.

@TooBigForMyBoots

I'm not sure 90% of black people don't identify with BLM.

I was curious so I looked up some polling in the US. It suggested that about 71% of black Americans strongly support BLM and another another 15% somewhat support it. That was a little over a year ago.

It would be interesting to see what the result would be if you broke down what that support meant, do people think if it as a general cause or specific support for an organisation for example,but I didn't see any research like that.

I suspect that if you broke "feminism" down into some specific ideas, you would see a similar level of support.

Feminism = equal rights for women. Why WOULDNT people be feminists. I would question why not honestly. If she said she didn’t want equal rights for women I would be

I think the issue is that feminism in practice is often very different from the written version. I can understand the desire to discuss and address social inequalities between the sexes, but what we more often see is constant whinging about men at every opportunity and perpetual quest to find victimhood in every interaction.

@Blessex

Feminism = equal rights for women. Why WOULDNT people be feminists. I would question why not honestly. If she said she didn’t want equal rights for women I would be

If you read the thread, that question has been answered multiple times by different posters.

It's interesting because I actually stopped calling myself a feminist after reading the feminism boards on here. I still think of myself as a feminist I just don't say it because I then get attacked for supporting trans rights

I have to say that I can relate less and less to the posts that get posted on the feminist boards on mumsnet.

A few years ago I would have balked at her comment too, but I am in a position now where I can sort of see where she is coming from.

There was a discussion on here yesterday about a young boy using a cubicle in a female changing room supervised by his mother. There was an absolutely hysterical response from a huge number of posters clamouring about protecting female spaces. But what really came across was sheer vitriol directed at a little boy, because he happened to be male.

There are so so many man-hating posts/responses on here. There is also the fact that the gender-critical clique seems to have aligned itself with the feminism board on here- with no regard for whether others want that.

I just relate to the narrative less and less.

I remain at heart a feminist (someone who wants equality for women) but I don’t align myself with some of the messages being expounded as ‘feminist’. So I might hesitate to say I am feminist, in case someone associated me with the man- hating or gender critical posters on here.

@Holly60 the "Feminism Chat" section was recently separated out from the "Feminism - Sex and Gender" section, specifically to silo discussions about gender critical topics and keep them away from other people who don't want to see them. If you see a thread in Feminism Chat that you think is gender critical or has become so, then report it to MNHQ and they will move it for you into the other topic.

[quote AssassinatedBeauty]@Holly60 the "Feminism Chat" section was recently separated out from the "Feminism - Sex and Gender" section, specifically to silo discussions about gender critical topics and keep them away from other people who don't want to see them. If you see a thread in Feminism Chat that you think is gender critical or has become so, then report it to MNHQ and they will move it for you into the other topic.[/quote]
Thank you for this. Unfortunately I think it’s the fact that it still comes under an umbrella of ‘feminism’ - ie it’s in the title, coupled with the fact that so many of the posters seem to suggest that you can’t be a ‘real’ feminist if you aren’t gender critical.

I’ve begun to question if I am indeed a counterfeit feminist

But the point is that the Feminism Chat section is set up not to allow threads or comments that are seen as gender critical to remain. They can be requested to be moved to Feminism Sex and Gender, thus keeping the Feminism Chat section reserved for those who don't want to encounter gender critical thread topics. It was the entire reason for the split. There is therefore a dedicated section for all types of feminism that aren't gender critical. That's probably about as good as you're going to get on a public anonymous chat forum.

I must say I never understand the idea that because some randoms on the Internet say that you are wrong and can't be a feminist, that you must agree with them and give up the descriptor.

The only person who can answer your question is the woman you are friends with. Who knows why she doesn't want to call herself a feminist. You will just have to ask her if you want to really know. It does seem a bit odd that she brought up the topic though and kept insisting she wasn't a feminist. Bit bizarre.

I don't care much for the label of feminist these days. Feminism is a broad ideology, and like any ideology it has its flaws and failings. There's a lot of good stuff in feminism, but it would be silly to think that feminism has all of the answers. No ideology is 100% perfect.

I disagree with a number of explanations put forward by feminists or I'm not particularly convinced by some of the arguments, such as male violence is entirely the product of socialisation. That every dynamic between women and men is again just a product of socialisation and if everyone was just socialised in the 'correct' way (an impossible ideal) that it would all be sunshine and rainbows.
Socialisation permeates everything and is apparently much, much stronger than biology or evolutionary factors (or sometimes there's even an outright refusal to acknowledge biology / evolution). Men should be able to easily overcome their socialisation (which is supposedly really strong) and yet at the same time women are incapable of overcoming their socialisation.

I also prefer pragmatic solutions based on reality and the acceptance that we are part of the animal kingdom, not outside of it. My desire is to see better outcomes for women and children, and I am open to looking for solutions from all kinds of areas - which includes feminism, instead of the idea that the solutions can only come from feminism, if that makes sense.

I don’t call myself a feminist anymore because I have no idea what it means. I am anti surrogacy, I am supportive of abortion but only to a point, I am anti trans ideology. I respect gender differences as cultural, historical and I am conservative in my views. I don’t like gender neutral as it is so boring and homogeneous for example I think fashion for male and female sexed bodies is fine by me. I have zero in common with women who think prostitution, late term lifestyle abortion, surrogacy, mixed sex anything is all ok. I think that women and girls are in danger from men and women’s rights suck in this country and around the world. I am vocal about my views but as above I have no idea what feminism is. It is not a church at all let alone a broad one as views are utterly opposite under that banner.

Rather then put lots of examples under the word feminism, perhaps there is a core theme that we share that can be applied across multiple situations. The ultimate view that women have the same value and therefore require the same different but equivalent rights as men.

If men have the right and ability to walk away from pregnancy, then so do women. This has to be within reason and scientific and ethical considerations always need rigorous debate.

Men are not bought as vessels to grow humans, so women should not automatically be presumed to take on this role. If a women chooses to do this for altruistic reasons that is her choice.

Men do not cover their face to appease women under the guise of religion, so women should not be expected to do that either. If men and women choose to pray on the same day or avoid certain food, that is choice based and equal.

I would not describe myself as a feminist. Maybe i am though? I don't know.

I am a full time working mother, senior management role in a male dominated industry. Only female on the management team.

Im female, i love women and support them in their choices. But as a compassionate person i feel i do this for anyone. I don't read feminist literature, or get involved in any action or campaigns about feminist issues. Its not something i have a lot of time to worry about (possibly privilege?) So i think thats why i aren't?

I know one person well who is a feminist. And she probably does fall into the 'bang on about it' category which does colour my view perhaps. Shes a 'busy and noisy' feminist so maybe my lack of action means i compare myself?

I also do not want to be singled out for being female in any way (i refuse to be part of my jobs female only professional groups for example). As i just think being female should be a non issue so i have always avoided groups and labels that make it one?

In my most recent role i have encountered what i am comfortable calling out as sexism for the first time in a way i recognise. And i have let a senior figure know and have begun to challenge 'laddy' behaviour such as 'bitty' memes in the management teams chat channel. Does THAT make me a feminist? Now i have taken some sort of action.

I also have a young daughter!