Why would a woman say she's not a feminist?

[Mum2021askingquestion]

I recently made a new friend. Today, over a playdate with our daughters, she told me twice and in very strong terms that she's not a feminist.

I don't understand what she means by this.

Some vague background...

She is in her 30s with two children, one of each sex. Her husband, from what she's told me and the little from when I met him, is one of the good guys. They both work, both full time I think and my assumption is their salaries are fairly equal (I know their job titles and they're approx equivalent levels of seniority).

We've talked around some men being useless and others being decent, both regarding housework, childcare, and general behaviour. We seemed well aligned on this.

I didn't feel quite brave enough to say 'what on earth do you mean you're not a feminist? What part of feminism puts you off?' but I might next time we're chatting.

I've shared a few things with her which implicitly give the impression I'm a feminist, or at least for a modern equality between the sexes compared with old fashioned views of eg husband being in charge in a marriage and she wholeheartedly agreed.

I don't think this is anything to do with gender vs sex etc, I'm pretty sure this one isn't hugely on her radar.

Her daughter has been subject to low level bullying which relates to her being a girl and she was a strong advocate for her at school, we both agreed the boy needed a message this isn't OK just as much as the girl needed support.

Does anyone have a friend who would claim not to be a feminist who can shed any light on this? This is not a family where the man supports them both and the woman stays at home, that isn't their values. I'm confused.

She's a really interesting, warm, funny person and I'd like to stay friends with her. It just threw me.

[FFSFFSFFS]

@LobsterNapkin - I take your point. Although I still think I see feminism as a broad category which is about right soft women and girls (and I think most people who haven’t studied political theory would also see it as that - but under maybe not). But I do get your point that you see it as a particular political tradition. In that case what description do you think would cover it? Women’s Rights??

[lazylinguist]

I just don't see how it could be a basic definition. If we talk about things like feminist thought, or feminist history, that's a specific tradition. It doesn't include all women who have ideas about women's issues, even if they believe in political or other types of equality.

But if 'feminist' is not a basic, broad definition of someone who believes women should have equal rights to men, then what does it mean? Are people suggesting that the word has no intrinsic meaning at all without adding 'radical', 'liberal' or a detailed description of political views and aims?

[LobsterNapkin]

[quote FFSFFSFFS]@LobsterNapkin - I take your point. Although I still think I see feminism as a broad category which is about right soft women and girls (and I think most people who haven’t studied political theory would also see it as that - but under maybe not). But I do get your point that you see it as a particular political tradition. In that case what description do you think would cover it? Women’s Rights??[/quote]
Yes, I think women's rights is in some ways much broader, it encompasses a lot more and is less connected to a specific political and social tradition.

Even if someone just says, I believe in equality for women, it's not straightforward. Do they mean in terms of having the same political rights? Their votes should count as much? Or what about things like maternity leave, or reproductive questions? Are those meant to be the same as for men? Or to try and level the playing field between women and men? What about ideas like women's representatives in politics? And how do we balance those kinds of things, if we do them, against the rights of other people, because they do have an effect on society overall. What does it mean for children at a societal level being a significant one. What does all of this this look like in a society where women have few children vs ones where they have many? What about a society where work tends to be strongly related to reproductive role? What happens if a society puts a high value on mothers and most women don't want to do the same work as men?

There seems to be less baggage attached to thinking about those things in terms of women's rights, rather than feminism.

[LobsterNapkin]

@lazylinguist

I just don't see how it could be a basic definition. If we talk about things like feminist thought, or feminist history, that's a specific tradition. It doesn't include all women who have ideas about women's issues, even if they believe in political or other types of equality.

But if 'feminist' is not a basic, broad definition of someone who believes women should have equal rights to men, then what does it mean? Are people suggesting that the word has no intrinsic meaning at all without adding 'radical', 'liberal' or a detailed description of political views and aims?

Not really, because i'd include all of those within feminism. But I do think of it as a particular intellectual and activist tradition within a particular society.

Look at something like abortion rights - it's related to a whole different set of premises about how to manage equality of women in society. In the US, something like half of women, last time I looked, were basically pro-life. More would put restrictions on things like late-term abortions. And women are slightly less likely to be pro-choice than men. These women to a significant extent would consider themselves to be conservatives of a sort (though not all would and it used to be less the case - in the past many would also have been Christian socialists.)

It's not that all these women don't believe in political equality for women. They absolutely do, and also that women are equal in dignity, in moral value, and all that. They do tend to extend the legal category of person to an earlier point in human development, and see the legal/ethical issue as balancing the rights of two persons rather than asserting the rights of one person. They tend to accept that difference in reproductive role will mean that there are some really different experiences that men and women will have to contend with in their lives. They as a result tend to favour approaches to equality that try to accommodate those differences, particularly around socially and legally emphasizing fathers as supporting mothers and children, and discouraging casual sexual activity.

There's a whole separate tradition of women like this talking among themselves and advocating for what they see as best for women and children socially and politically, and they have not really ever been admitted to the feminist discourse. The tendency of feminist is to say they are gender essentialists and in thrall to (or under the thumb of) the patriarchy, and often imply that they would prefer to see their daughters under-educated and underemployed. It's not a viewpoint that has typically been treated by feminism with anything like respect for their views or thoughts as women.

The women themselves would say that what they are doing is accepting that women's differing reproductive role does typically make for a different life experience, and that can't just be ironed over with birth control, abortion, and employment laws. And they'd point out that for women who want to be mothers, feminism often doesn't really go to bat for them, or seem to value their social role.

Maybe this should also be called feminism, but that doesn't seem to be the approach.

[FriedasCarLoad]

Was it Germaine Greer who said that a feminist is someone who identifies themselves first and foremost as a woman? Sorry if I've got the wrong person. But by that definition I'm not a feminist. (I would say that being a Christian is more central to my identity than being a woman).

Some friends have said to me that I'm not a feminist because I'm pro-life. For those reasons I don't describe myself as a feminist, although I don't describe myself as "not a feminist" either. I don't have the time (or, to be honest, the inclination) to get into an argument on either of those things today.

But there are plenty of different definitions of what a feminist is, and just as many reasons why someone might not describe themselves as a feminist. It's a leap to assume they either misunderstand feminism or are overly concerned about male approval.

[KimikosNightmare]

@TooBigForMyBoots

There will always be disagreements within feminism. It doesnt mean we are on opposite sides.

Really? Not on opposite sides?

I've seen plenty of posts on the feminist section here from radical feminists saying exactly that- that liberal feminists are on the side of men.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

And do you agree with them on that @KimikosNightmare?

[TooBigForMyBoots]

I've seen plenty of posts on the feminist section here from radical feminists saying exactly that- that liberal feminists are on the side of men.

I know, but that's because most don't know what Liberal Feminism is. For others it's a handy way focus their internalised misogyny.

[OuchWhatWasThat]

I would say the liberal feminist are anti-women.

[KimikosNightmare]

@AssassinatedBeauty

And do you agree with them on that *@KimikosNightmare*?

I have no opinion on it either way. I'm not a liberal feminist nor a radical feminist

[tilder]

There is more than one way to do feminism. More than one definition too. We all have different priorities. Some of these can be quite polarizing (prostitution for example).

IME, it's quite common for people to declare they are not feminists. Lots of reasons for that, not least because of the way a patriarchal depicts and misrepresents feminists.

When the inequality bites, most discover their inner feminist. Unless they genuinely consider women to be inferior to men.

[TooBigForMyBoots]

Liberal feminism, also calledmainstream feminism, is a main branch offeminismdefined by its focus on achievinggender equalitythroughpoliticalandlegal reformwithin the framework ofliberal democracy.

What's anti woman about that @OuchWhatWasThat?

[tilder]

@TooBigForMyBoots

Liberal feminism, also calledmainstream feminism, is a main branch offeminismdefined by its focus on achievinggender equalitythroughpoliticalandlegal reformwithin the framework ofliberal democracy.

What's anti woman about that *@OuchWhatWasThat*?

Nothing. Apart from using the term gender (that's a biggie).

Liberal feminism has views on prostitution that many feminists do view as anti women though. Personally, I do not think prostitution is empowering to the vast majority of women nor do I think legalizing prostitution would help women in general. But liberal feminism does.

There is more to feminism than a title or sound bite. Hence all the discussion.

[KimikosNightmare]

It's my understanding that liberal feminism has views on prostitution and pornography that I would consider as very damaging in particular to the persons, mainly women, engaged in prostitution and pornography and to society generally.

I don't think legalising prostitution is empowering for women or good for society generally. I don't see a particular need to say I'm a radical feminist or a liberal feminist to hold those views.

[logsonlogsoff]

I’ve had the reasons explained to
Me, many times by women who say they aren’t and it still makes no sense to me.

[Ghoulette]

I don't call myself a Feminist because feminism nowadays comes across as "women before everyone else".

My view of feminism is that it should be a fight for equality and equal rights. Everyone should get treated the same. When people hear the word feminist they instantly think I want to be put on a peristalsis and treated better than men.

Therefore I tend to say I want equality and leave the label feminist out of it completely.

[AssassinatedBeauty]

@Ghoulette could you give an example for you of when modern feminism expects women to be put on a pedestal and treated better than men?

[TooBigForMyBoots]

Liberal feminism is not defined by its views on prostitution. Nor is there consensus among liberal feminists about the best way to deal with it. They are however, united in their desire to reduce the harm to women.

My definition was a c&p job from Wiki.

[Heruka]

Put on a peristalsis

Sorry, couldn’t resist

[Charlize43]

Not really, I read that only 7% of women identify with feminism, which probably explains why the Women's Equality Party didn't get much traction.

If you value her friendship you'll accept her as she is.

[FFSFFSFFS]

For the people on here saying that you think feminists are demanding more than men and not equality - tbh I think you are being very naive about the extent to which women really are still so much at a disadvantage compared to men. There is a long way to go before fighting for women’s rights would put women in a superior position.

[DillonPanthersTexas]

a lot of modern feminism is quite elitist and sneers at non academic WC women who perform any kind of feminity

Sounds like this place at times, how many people on here have stated that they are scared of posting on the feminist boards as they in equal measure find them toxic patronising. I have seen curious women post some basic enquiry only to be dismissed out of hand and told to go and educate themselves. You see the same dominant posters spending pages and pages trying to point score off each other over who can regurgitate the latest feminist theory or namecheck some obscure author.

[Witchcraftandhokum]

I don't call myself a feminist anymore as I support trans rights.

[AlfonsoTheUnrepetant]

@Witchcraftandhokum

I don't call myself a feminist anymore as I support trans rights.

I appreciate your honesty.

[Charlize43]

I probably am a feminist of sorts, but was put off at an early age when I worked with a couple of very vocal ones who created a horribly toxic work environment: the constant disparaging of men was really draining and negative on everyone, including the men who worked there (one of two was the boss). They were always on the look out for slights, often they were so trivial - men opening doors, or customers using the term 'lady' on the phone, which would set them off. My boss always started the day by recounting her journey in, which would always include some offence a man had caused, manspreading on the tube, an aggressive male driver, men undressing her with their eyes, mansplaining, etc, declare that all men were pigs and this would set the tone for the day. Her other favourite discourses were, 'all men are potential rapists; all out to harm women; blah blah blah'...

I always remember a work colleague saying something like for some feminists, men are like the eternal jew was to the Nazis.

I recognise that all feminists aren't like this, but the association with the constant moaning and general negativity is what puts me off. Something inside me switches off the moment the disparaging of men starts. It can also breed a sense of resentment and fear and a kind of half empty glass mentality. I grew up in a family of very headstrong positive women who've always done what they wanted, so the whole 'victim mentality' isn't something that I'm comfortable with. I'm a strong believer that life is largely what you make it and most of us in the UK have the power to change it, if you are prepared to work hard. We are all free to make choices. Call me naive and selfish if you want, but you only go around once so you might as well try and enjoy it.