Why would a woman say she's not a feminist?

[Mum2021askingquestion]

I recently made a new friend. Today, over a playdate with our daughters, she told me twice and in very strong terms that she's not a feminist.

I don't understand what she means by this.

Some vague background...

She is in her 30s with two children, one of each sex. Her husband, from what she's told me and the little from when I met him, is one of the good guys. They both work, both full time I think and my assumption is their salaries are fairly equal (I know their job titles and they're approx equivalent levels of seniority).

We've talked around some men being useless and others being decent, both regarding housework, childcare, and general behaviour. We seemed well aligned on this.

I didn't feel quite brave enough to say 'what on earth do you mean you're not a feminist? What part of feminism puts you off?' but I might next time we're chatting.

I've shared a few things with her which implicitly give the impression I'm a feminist, or at least for a modern equality between the sexes compared with old fashioned views of eg husband being in charge in a marriage and she wholeheartedly agreed.

I don't think this is anything to do with gender vs sex etc, I'm pretty sure this one isn't hugely on her radar.

Her daughter has been subject to low level bullying which relates to her being a girl and she was a strong advocate for her at school, we both agreed the boy needed a message this isn't OK just as much as the girl needed support.

Does anyone have a friend who would claim not to be a feminist who can shed any light on this? This is not a family where the man supports them both and the woman stays at home, that isn't their values. I'm confused.

She's a really interesting, warm, funny person and I'd like to stay friends with her. It just threw me.

I declared myself not a feminist, but an egalitarian, until the trans arguments on Mumsnet made me realise how much woman's rights are under attack. At that point I became a feminist after all.

And as others have alluded, the white femriarchy is increasingly seen as problematic.

Well I think that DonaLd Trump being elected was an absolute TRAVESTY. But I still believe in democracy.

Just because there are particular types of feministic tactics that you do t agree with doesn’t mean that you’re not a feminisit.

As said - feminism is the belief that women and girls should e equal and safe from male abs violence.

How feminism is achieved is then a whole debate in itself.

Lots of feminists seem to think that the 33 million men in the UK should all be judged by the 100 who murder their partners every year.

No, not by 100 men. Murder is not the only crime men commit against women.

No one irl has ever asked me or discussed feminism except very briefly freshers fair at university. I have discussed issues that affect women and have been campaigned about by feminists such as equal pay and maternity rights.

I’m not often on Feminism on MN - just if it happens to come into active. I don’t know enough to be able to defend positions with evidence. Might be wrong place to say this but I’m not that interested in learning about the Movement if there is such a thing.

I’ll happily sign petitions or campaign relating to a specific issue. So maybe I campaign for women’s’ rights but don’t understand/can’t explain feminism.

I’m on the fence. I guess in some ways I’m a feminist and in some ways not (depending on what someone defines as feminist).

Eg - I think there should be equal opportunities for men and women; but I wouldn’t be surprised if when given these opportunities, on a population level, they choose different jobs/roles (thus we shouldn’t necessarily strive for 50% sex equality for every role). I would be against all-women shortlists (unless for something like a women’s refuge, breast screening clinic). I think SAHM and SAHD are valuable (though both in the couple should ensure they have financial protection) - though there are biological reasons (eg if you wish to breastfeed for an extended period) that may mean sahm is more practical when kids are young. Some people complain about it being structural that women do more in the house - but I see it more as a relationship issue - some men are just bad partners who don’t pull their weight rather than a quality of all men (in our house I do more kids stuff but DH does more life admin than me). CMS should definitely be better enforced. I’m definitely grateful for feminism historically - eg having ability to vote, go to uni, get a job.

responses of feminists to some of these opinions makes me less keen to identify with them (even though I would be happy to say that I agree on a lot of the things).

@FFSFFSFFS

Well I think that DonaLd Trump being elected was an absolute TRAVESTY. But I still believe in democracy.

Just because there are particular types of feministic tactics that you do t agree with doesn’t mean that you’re not a feminisit.

As said - feminism is the belief that women and girls should e equal and safe from male abs violence.

How feminism is achieved is then a whole debate in itself.

On what basis do you get to say that?

Earlier in the thread some person said that women who don't call themselves feminists usually don't know much about feminism. I don't think that's true at all.

Feminism is largely a mid-20th century social political movement, though it has some earlier roots, that includes certain writings, certain assumptions about politics, the nature of the body, about the nature of equality, about economics, and so on. It has a shape.

There are many women from earlier times or other cultures who believed in equality of dignity, or political equality for women, with no real connection to the modern feminist movement. Because their context was different, their views don't share a lot of that background. And that's also true for some women in our culture, today. That background and those assumptions doesn't really speak to their experience, or it doesn't speak to their beliefs.

They might feel some kind of feminine solidarity with these other groups of women, but why should they have to put themselves inside a political tradition they don't belong to?

And I'l point out, every once in a while some thread pops up from a feminist poster who thinks that feminism is be definition politically left wing. Or you see people on a thread (there is at least one active now) where some posters clearly think the idea of a feminist member of the Conservative party is contradictory. These posters always consider themselves to be feminists.

If women who say they are dedicated feminists say things like that, what do you expect?

Lobsternapkin - agree. I’m from a different culture and sexism there has different issues from western feminism. Some things are better than in the west and some things are worse (though things have vastly improved in the last 2 generations).

I think unless there are other clues, I don’t know why your friend said she wasn’t a feminist. However anyone I’ve ever known who said this were all silly ‘man’s’ women who didn’t have female friends and were showing off to the men! I’m sure that isn’t the case for everyone, but it made me ‘eye roll’.

I consider myself a feminist. Why wouldn’t I be for women’s equality? Which is how I see it. I don’t care if some feminists are man hating or pains in the arse, it’s not me or anyone I know.

However I don’t present this at the forefront, or talk about being a feminist much. Because I prefer to see myself as wanting equality and humanity for everyone. I often speak of men’s vulnerabilities too for example.

I am also someone who doesn’t call herself a feminist because I find the scope of it it be overly focused on the perspective of white women. Asking if you think men and women should be equal is simplistic when we’re not all starting from the same disadvantaged position and acknowledgement of that is automatically seen as being divisive rather than an attempt to include all women.

I also could not possibly care less about the trans debate and find that it takes over every conversation no matter how irrelevant and I don’t support the belief that it’s the most important fight for women today.

So when feminists uphold someone as one of their anti-trans heroes despite them being racist or homophobic or ableist or sexist, for example the feminists who support Trump, then that again tells me I don’t matter to feminists because they’d see me destroyed and wouldn’t care so long as they got what they think is the most important thing. Yet they claim to speak and fight for the benefit of all women. I am a woman and they do not speak or fight for me.

I also dislike the notion that only the liberal feminists are the ones being arrogant about what feminism is. Somehow every word the conservative feminists don’t like to be called is a slur that “shuts down conversation” yet those same women are very quick to toss out their own insults of cool girls, handmaidens, and traitors when they don’t like a more liberal perspective. Both sides suck for different reasons and not so different reasons as far as I’m concerned.

I am also someone who does care about issues that impact men. I don’t think it’s always appropriate to bring it up and certain people do so to derail conversations about women but I don’t think those issues are irrelevant. And I’ve seen plenty of women always right and man always wrong posting on here that I can’t get behind either.

Some women don't feel they are acceptable to feminists. Say for example, if they take on a traditionally female role. Some feminists tell them they are upholding and perpetuating the Patriarchy. I have felt like this myself at times. So whilst I agree with a lot of what feminists fight for, I don't feel accepted by them.

Great post @avaynia even if my perspective is a bit different from yours.

The only feminist groups I’ve been able to find are either ”sex-positive” idiots or the like the ones you find on here MN where straight women with husbands and kids are the only one’s whose voices matter.

I would love to find a place where there would be discussions about women’s rights and history and how to move forwards.
To learn something.
To feel like actually doing something.
Not just listening to how getting beaten or strangulated during sex or prostitution, or on the flip side, how being SAHM and waxing and plastic surgery is oh so empowering.

It all just caters to men and patriarchy.
We need to be strong and brave and move away from male centered society and personal lives.

We really should be moving on by now.

I guess it comes down to whether you think 'feminist' is a subjective description or a basic factual definition. I don't agree with all of the views on religion held by all atheists. However, the definition of an atheist is a person who believes there are no gods. I believe there are no gods, therefore by the definition of the word, I am an atheist, whatever I do or don't choose to call myself.

I also dislike the notion that only the liberal feminists are the ones being arrogant about what feminism is. Somehow every word the conservative feminists don’t like to be called is a slur that “shuts down conversation”

"conservative feminist" is not the opposite of "liberal feminist". The disagreements are between "radical feminists" and "liberal feminists"

As someone else pointed out "conservative" or "Conservative" feminists might or might not exist, depending on who you speak to.

Radical feminism is not the opposite of liberal feminism either.

@TooBigForMyBoots

Radical feminism is not the opposite of liberal feminism either.

I didn't say they were.

But it would be disingenuous in the extreme to deny there is disagreement between radical feminist and liberal feminists.(or as certain posters on here refer to liberal feminists "Vichy feminists" or "handmaidens")

There are lot of groups who do ‘feminist’ type work who wouldn’t see themselves as feminists, so maybe we shouldn’t be hung up about the word?

Had no idea there were groups of feminists who were sex positives! You learn something new every day!

And I’ve seen plenty of women always right and man always wrong posting on here that I can’t get behind either. agree with this also! I think that’s lazy and just wrong. It’s always more complex, and sometimes women seem to uphold the misogyny more than men, I believe. I still don’t mind at all seeing myself as a feminist.

There will always be disagreements within feminism. It doesnt mean we are on opposite sides.

@lazylinguist

I guess it comes down to whether you think 'feminist' is a subjective description or a basic factual definition. I don't agree with all of the views on religion held by all atheists. However, the definition of an atheist is a person who believes there are no gods. I believe there are no gods, therefore by the definition of the word, I am an atheist, whatever I do or don't choose to call myself.

I just don't see how it could be a basic definition. If we talk about things like feminist thought, or feminist history, that's a specific tradition. It doesn't include all women who have ideas about women's issues, even if they believe in political or other types of equality.

I don't know, I come from a long line of strong women (from both parents's side) who have fought for women's rights. It wasn't called feminism though but it is.

I've been a 'feminist' from when I was very young but didn't have a name for it. At this point, I don't need to call myself one to fight for women and girls - I just carry on with what I do. On the other hand, I stand for everyone's rights too and won't shut down a man because 'feminism', if he has a point.

I don't resist if I'm called a feminist - there are many ideas I disagree and agree with feminists on - but it's not my personal identity.

Well, I’d call myself a feminist. Otoh by the standards of the feminism sex and gender board here I’m a traitor to feminism. So.

Does she come from a very WC background?

a lot of modern feminism is quite elitist and sneers at non academic WC women who perform any kind of feminity,

it puts a lot of women off, and think this isn't for me