Male/female friendships

[Comedycook]

Hi... thought I would post here as I believe this is a feminist issue and I fear I'll be torn to shreds in aibu

I'm of the belief that men who are interested in having a genuine friendship (with no ulterior motives) with women are very thin on the ground.

Many women, particularly younger ones, shout me down when I express this view. However, from my own experience, I believe lots of men who are friends with women are doing so on the off chance that they might be in with a chance one day. When I was younger, slim, pretty, single I had plenty of make friends. As a fatter, older, settled down mum , I have none. Funny that!

So I'll accept there will be totally platonic friendships between men and women, but I think these are few and far between and many women are incredibly naive about what male friends are really thinking.

Thoughts?

You have said several things about men that make it very clear what you think about them. Hatred might be strong, but you raised it!
Why do you feel to state you are not deesperate for male friendship?
This is your thread - you started it!
Nobody claimed you were desperate.
Many people are saying that friendships just happen, people don't seek them out, or seek out male friendships especially.

It's because it's on feminism OP so you must be a man hater.

Loads of threads on this topic on other boards, where the person is in a relationship-

Generally majority view is this sort of stuff.

One always fancies the other. Dangerous.

Why do you even want to be friends with a man? That's odd seeing as you have partner.

Disrespectful to your partner.

I wouldn't let DH have a female friend.

Rare, usually means affair.

Men are only friends with women they want to shag.

Etc etc.

So on main boards you would be with the majority!

Most of society does abide by the heavily pushed idea that men like men and women like women. Girls nights. Weekend with the boys. All that.

I've been to loads of things where it seemed to be expected the men and women would separate into 2 groups. The men would drink beer and talk football and the women drink wine and talk about children.

I find it utterly bizarre and tend to rebel

But it's a total norm in society.

The way loads of men think about and talk about women is way way worse than anything the OP has said!!!

I haven't said a single thing which indicates I hate men. Fwiw, no women owe men friendship. Really highlights the very entitlement I'm talking about when you're apparently a man hater for preferring female friendships.

@Comedycook

The older I've got, the more cynical I've got for sure. I think many women as they age become more feminist in their views. Was it Germaine Greer who said men hate women? The more I see, the more I believe it is true. When my DH eventually gets fed up of me I'm not sure I'll be terribly bothered to seek another relationship.

Regardless I'm not sure many married mums go out of their way to form platonic relationships with other men

Well, I’m a decade older than you, married, a mother, have been an active campaigning feminist since my student days, and have read and taught Germaine Greer’s work, and I still have male friends. Partly because I don’t seem to have your hang ups about what ‘married mums’ do or don’t do as regards friendships.

Plus I still find it baffling that you keep making huge generalisations about men and male-female friendships when by your own admission you know no men apart from your husband and son.

So you start a thread about how platonic male-female friendships are rare, then say you don’t know any men, don’t want to know any men, and anyway, no man would be interested in talking to you because you’re not attractive, and you don’t think many ‘married mums’ ‘go out of their way’ to make friends with men.

Do you ‘go out of your way’ to make friends with women?

by your own admission you know no men apart from your husband and son

I know plenty of men...I'm not a hermit. I just don't have any meaningful relationships with any of them.

What huge generalisations have I made?

OP trust me if this was on s different board you'd be getting agreement!

I know full well that I'm unusual for drinking with groups of men, lunching with them, going out to dinner in fancy restaurants with a male friend etc.

In fact I'd say it's definitely the norm in society because when I'm out for a drink mean meal etc in the evening 1-1 with one of my friends who is younger. We have noticed (and find it funny/ sometimes do things to confuse even more) that many people around are looking trying to work out what relationship we have. Because most assume fancy dinner, male female. Dating etc.

But. That can't be right? Cue bafflement

Thanks @NiceGerbil. It is totally bizarre to me some of the accusations levelled at me...apparently I hate men, don't know any men and don't know how to talk to them. It seems entirely unremarkable to me that I don't have male friends...there are lots of women who dont.

I actually thought on the feminism board there would be other posters who would understand my viewpoint and how I don't believe the vast majority of men are interested in platonic male/female friendship

@Comedycook

by your own admission you know no men apart from your husband and son

I know plenty of men...I'm not a hermit. I just don't have any meaningful relationships with any of them.

What huge generalisations have I made?

That men interested in genuine friendships with women are very thin on the ground.

That you believe that most men who have female friends do so because they think there’s a chance of sex.

That many women are ‘incredibly naive’ about what men are thinking.

That, misquoting Greer, you believe men hate women.

For someone who has no ‘meaningful relationships’ with men, and says you would have no idea how to strike up a friendship with a man, and that you don’t want to anyway, you are claiming a lot of insight into men’s motivations.

I'm basing those opinions on my own experiences

That men interested in genuine friendships with women are very thin on the ground. Yep, this is quite uncontroversial I think.

That you believe that most men who have female friends do so because they think there’s a chance of sex I think a lot of men probably sub consciously think it could be a possibility and That they are more likely to be friends with women they find attractive

That many women are ‘incredibly naive’ about what men are thinking yes of course

That, misquoting Greer, you believe men hate women I didn't directly quote, I said it was something like that.

@NiceGerbil

OP trust me if this was on s different board you'd be getting agreement!

I know full well that I'm unusual for drinking with groups of men, lunching with them, going out to dinner in fancy restaurants with a male friend etc.

In fact I'd say it's definitely the norm in society because when I'm out for a drink mean meal etc in the evening 1-1 with one of my friends who is younger. We have noticed (and find it funny/ sometimes do things to confuse even more) that many people around are looking trying to work out what relationship we have. Because most assume fancy dinner, male female. Dating etc.

But. That can't be right? Cue bafflement

But you don’t think it’s a date and neither does the man you’re with, correct? Maybe wherever you live has particularly entrenched views about gender? I certainly lived in a Midlands village that would have shared them, but it was the most dull and insular place I’ve ever lived, and I’ve honestly only encountered the view that dinner or cinema is some kind of couples thing on Mn. This evening DH had dinner with an old mutual female friend, and I had other plans so only joined them at the end, and I’d be astonished if anyone was speculating about their relationship status. At the table across I saw someone I used to know having dinner with someone who was there husband, either. It’s really not that unusual (unless you live in rural Leicestershire.)

Sorry, ‘who was not her husband’.

Goodness - what a bizarre viewpoint.
I have just as many platonic male friends as platonic female friends.
I meet up with my male friends in pretty much the same way as my female friends - the only exception is a couple of 'mums' groups where we meet for 'girls nights out'.
I can't remember the last time I met up 121 with a female friend but have done so several times with male friends.
I do have hobbies which make it more likely that I'll come across men than women. But the thought that these men are interested in me in anything but a social platonic way is just laughable. As is the thought that having a dp would make it somehow unseemly to have male friends.
And I can't think of anything worse than having 'woman's woman' friends!

I live in London.

The most obvious time was in Islington. I don't think that area is known for being traditional particularly!

I'm not imagining things. Honestly.

Lovely restaurant we hadn't realised it had a quite romantic sort of vibe.

Woman mid 40s having dinner with a man early 30s and v good looking (not just my appraisal the men at work were always going on about it) yes you could see them wondering.

If you think that people don't do this. I dunno. Maybe you haven't tried it?

In that instance we noticed and found it funny so we moved closer together and played up to it a bit and surreptitiously observed the increased confusion it was v funny.

Yeah I mean doesn't happen if I'm out with a similar age bloke obv!

'But the thought that these men are interested in me in anything but a social platonic way is just laughable'

In your experience.

It does happen. A fair bit. If you're both heterosexual.

In the end IME loads of men just don't even consider women as potential friends and vice versa.

I think those who do, and see those they meet as people first. With no expectations or biases about a host of factors. Are rare. IME.

@NiceGerbil

'But the thought that these men are interested in me in anything but a social platonic way is just laughable'

In your experience.

It does happen. A fair bit. If you're both heterosexual.

In the end IME loads of men just don't even consider women as potential friends and vice versa.

I think those who do, and see those they meet as people first. With no expectations or biases about a host of factors. Are rare. IME.

Yes that's what I mean...It's not impossible but I do think it's rare

Perhaps it's the way in which you are meeting men.
I meet them through a shared interest. That's what is the gel in the friendship. Truly there is only one that might be interested if circumstances were different. It's quite easy to tell that the others aren't and really.... it doesn't matter if they are interested - we all know what the score is.

Like I said earlier it really depends on your circs.

I work in a male dominated environment went to a male dominated uni& course. I've always been around loads of blokes all the time since 6th form and so naturally have male friends what with there being loads of them I see all the time.

While I was having babies & WFH the people I saw a lot were a very different kettle of fish. Tbh I didn't meet.. any like minded people over those years and it was mainly women I saw a lot.

I also have zero interest in a lot of the topics that seem to be bread and butter at the start of getting to know people.

If you don't really mix with blokes day to day in s way that means you get to know each other then you're not going to make male friends are you.

And they are just people but at the same time. Loads of men and women just don't consider the opposite sex as friendship potential. That's all over society. I mean you can't miss it I don't think.

Middlesex I've always been notoriously shit at realising/ thinking etc that someone fancies me! In work/ general type situations.

I always assumed that male friends didn't. And then was confused and annoyed when they got pissed and tried to stick their tongue down my throat!

I do agree with OP on some points but in general for me anyway I care about how I get on with someone irrespective of sex etc etc.

On that point.

In my life I've noticed that lots of people seem only to mix with people who have similar characteristics to them. Things like similar job/ income, education, background, etc etc. That's a bit boring but pretty common I think.

Like extreme examples. And no idea how they meet! But anyway.

I (and ok this is all assumption but I think likely)- that these people wouldn't be likely to put the other person in potential friend category and so 'pursue' it to use the ops word, even if they get on. Not never. Just usually.

A 19yo boy, elderly woman
Heavy drinking pub going woman, young man who is very active in Jehovah's witnesses
High up chap in financial sector, woman who does the cleaning

That sort of stuff.

I mean I've seen people assume they wouldn't get on with people with things much more minor than that!

But the thought that these men are interested in me in anything but a social platonic way is just laughable. As is the thought that having a dp would make it somehow unseemly to have male friends.

Completely agree and I think that people assuming male-female friendships can't be platonic is a real shame. I've been married for over 20 years and neither of us has the slightest issue when the other socialises one to one with a friend of the opposite sex. We're secure enough in our relationship, trust each other and don't feel the need to exert control in that way. Occasionally I stay with a friend/old boyfriend at his house for a few days on my own (he's had some houses by the sea and it's lovely to have a change of scene..). There is absolutely zero interest from either of us in crossing that line.

My male friends add a lot to my happiness and I can't imagine ruling them out as friends just because they're male. My life would genuinely be the poorer for it. I'm not sure what a "woman's woman" is but I also have a wide circle of female friends. In terms of depth of relationship, that often comes over time and I lived with a number of my male friends at uni so we know each other very well. I'm on a WhatsApp group with two of the chaps I lived with and it's been a big support for one of them who's split from his wife. Some of the messages are far "deeper" than things i discuss with my female friends. Not that it's a competition.

I don't consciously "seek out" any friends, friendships develop naturally over shared interest or circumstances. But I'd be missing out on some great friendships if I limited them to female friends only. (We're off to see one of my male friends today with perfect timing).