Calling out the misogyny in drag is "hate" now

[Ravenclawsome]

Local museum has bought a costume featured on Drag Race.

It's then criticised those that point out that drag is misogynistic. 🙄

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/2385220/ru-pauls-drag-race-dundee-museum-hits-out-at-unacceptable-abuse-over-ellie-diamond-display/

Nice straw man you've built there!

Never seen such a big one.

"Womanface is not ok"

"Would it be ok to dress as a black person and mock black people with the stereotypes which are the basis of racism?"

"So, if it's not ok to do black face, why is it ok to mock women, and me by doing woman face?"

I’ve learnt today Karen white was a failed drag Queen.

@Articus

I’ve learnt today Karen white was a failed drag Queen.

Well colour me surprised.

Really? I'm surprised. Got a link?

That feels somehow not in keeping with their preferences behaviour etc etc

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/rapist-karen-white-in-women-s-jail-was-trans-faker-lbcwjp8jc

Mentioned in first paragraph of this article. Unable to read rest as behind paywall.

Hmm interesting...

The report says neighbours reported it was an overnight decision for Steven Wood to put on a wig and say he was Karen White. He commited crimes against women and children and was able to self-identity into a women's prison where he raped vulnerable women.

It's fine though as remember this cannot happen, men don't lie & after all their feelings come first. Real women know your place!

White is as trans as anyone else is. This is the reality. White's crimes against women were committed while self identifying onto the women's ward of a mental health hospital, and White was still permitted to identify into a women's prison to continue assaulting women.

It's helpful for the public to realise that this is the reality; it's also helpful to establish that trying to draw a line between White and other TW is impossible in reality. It's none or all. GRCs were the initial attempt to restrict this to a very small group in very specific circumstances and it's proved: that chink in the door has been forced to its widest extent. And White's victims have paid for this experiment, literally in blood in some cases.

@TRHR

Drag is not misogynistic. If you watched any, you'd know that drag queens dress up in homage and tribute to women. It's complimentary. Whereas 'blackface ' is and has a history of being demeaning to black people. * Also the GC theory is that gender shouldn't exist, and people should be able to dress however they want (think that's almost a direct quote from JKR) without changing sex - that's exactly what drag is. Why shouldn't men wear dresses if they want? Surely, as a take down of gender norms, GCs should support that? The fact some dislike drag showd to me that GC is more about dislike of trans people than gender norms, and that GCism is actually pro entrenchment of sex and gender norms. Also drag is performed by cis women, trans men, non binary people, so not just cis men dressing in female clothes.

• On a tangential point, gender dysphoria is real and documented for thousands of years. Racial dysphoria just isn't. So again, false to compare being trans to blackface.

You could not be more wrong, if you desperately tried, @TRHR Drag, with the over-exaggerated makeup, high heels, and the 'bitchy' comments is deeply sexist, you are so wrong. Ever seen live shows? They make misogynistic comments and run down women. Check your facts, before the defending the indefensible. Drag is Womanface, and is very offensive to women.

Also, 'cis' is a slur and not acceptable on this site and the use of it can get you a ban. It is deeply offensive to WOMEN. Please don't use it again.

@Aspiringmatriarch

You're missing my point Gerbil. Dolly Parton's look is a very exaggerated, theatrical femininity which is a long way from how most women naturally look. And that's fine. It's fine for people to do that if they want to (imo). Including a man - unless you actually think that being gender non-conforming is not okay? If so I can respect that, but I can't agree there's any other genuine reason to object. Because if say, lipstick is fine for a man to wear, then the other stuff should be too. There's plenty of problematic and patriarchal baggage to all sorts of aspects of women's fashion, so I don't see why Boy George et al should get a pass in that case.

I really don't understand this @Aspiringmatriarch. Dolly Parton doesn't look even remotely 'exaggerated' or 'theatrical', so looks like a normal woman, just with better hair care and skin/botox/collagen than most us us can afford. Apart from that she looks like your normal average woman.

@Aspiringmatriarch

Gender non-conforming is a man wearing stuff that’s traditionally associated with women. Drag isn’t that, it’s dressing up as a woman. The joke/frisson of the performance is that it’s a man, not a woman. That’s only possible within a gender-conforming framework because it needs a “normal” to subvert. This makes sense to me, thank you. I still don't agree with attacking drag as misogyny on that basis alone though.

Gerbil lots of fashion is about imitation and paying homage to different looks. As you say, it's been fashionable for women to look 'Reubenesque' (sp?) and at other times androgynous. Admittedly drag is imitating the female form and exaggerated female fashions but does that make it a parody of womanhood per se? It just doesn't connect with me like that.

Admittedly drag is imitating the female form and exaggerated female fashions

Ok lets see if this works, lets change it to Blackface. If a white man dressed up as an African American, for example, plastered their face with black boot polish and imitated and exaggerated African Americans....would you still claim it isn't a parody? Have a think about it.

@OhHolyJesus

Does the 'homage' include...

Taking a drag name from a murdered little girl?

Drag queen named after murdered 6 year old girl www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4076782-drag-queen-named-after-murdered-6-year-old-girl

Or abbreviating your drag name so you can get into a school and be around children?

www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5320992/drag-queen-school-flow-job-pictures-children-parents/

Or being racist whilst paying 'tribute'?

thebrag.com/aussie-clubs-apology-racist-drag-race-scandal/

Interesting.

Yes. And on a recent seasons (this year I believe) one drag queen on Drag Race mocked Lindy Chamberlain, the woman whose 8 week old baby girl Azaria was killed by a dingo. This mother lost her baby girl, and did the DQ mock Michael Chamberlain? Oh no. He of course chose the woman, the mother, to send up. Complete with blood-stained jacket. The internalised and blatantly obvious misogyny and hatred of women was very apparent in that segment. The mocking of a woman who lost her baby girl, who was disbelieved, who went through sheer hell the likes none of us could imagine-hounded, abused, spat at and had death threats, sentenced to hard labour and who had to give birth in jail.

Nope, as an Australian, I now loathe these hateful and misogynistic drag queens with a passion. Mocking Lindy was simply the last straw.

[quote Aspiringmatriarch]@Cazzovuoi in answer to your first example, I think because any kind of blackface has such an appalling history. Arguably this would be dressing as a specific person rather than portraying aspects of racial stereotyping, but a white person could never do so respectfully IMO because of the historical and cultural context.

Your paralympian and gay woman examples I'm less sure of. The former reminds me of those gross Little Britain sketches about the wheelchair user. Gross on any level.

I've never heard of anyone dressing up as an exaggerated version of a gay woman stereotype tbh. I would tend to think if someone was doing that they were probably actually expressing an aspect of their own sexuality and feelings about gender. Which isn't necessarily offensive. Nobody 'owns' gender expression do they? Whereas in the first two examples, disability and race are inherent physical attributes I suppose.[/quote]
I think because any kind of blackface has such an appalling history
And women over the decades and centuries haven't, @Aspiringmatriarch ? Both are minorities with a history of being abused, of being suppressed, held down, discriminated against etc. Black people and women. Both examples are minorities who have been discriminated against.

And women over the decades and centuries haven't, @Aspiringmatriarch ? Both are minorities with a history of being abused, of being suppressed, held down, discriminated against etc. Black people and women. Both examples are minorities who have been discriminated against.

I was comparing blackface to drag. You seem to be comparing blackface to the entirety of women's experience, so not really the point I was making. Also - women aren't a 'minority', surely?

I really don't understand this @Aspiringmatriarch. Dolly Parton doesn't look even remotely 'exaggerated' or 'theatrical', so looks like a normal woman, just with better hair care and skin/botox/collagen than most us us can afford. Apart from that she looks like your normal average woman.

Sorry you're struggling to understand. Maybe look at what Dolly has said about this? Here's a link if you're actually interested.

www.georgetakei.com/dolly-parton-drag-queen-dumplin-2622858586.html

She's a very interesting woman with a background to her look.

She has loads of gay fans.

I really don't see how any of this means anything really.

You are saying that because dolly parton has for years had a certain look, that means the drag look across the board is ..

Sorry I forgot your earlier argument. Makes the entire usual drag style- dress, personality adopted, etc. Not a problem?

Or was your point the celebrating women one?

I don't know Dolly but I'd be surprised if she behaves/ says things that are common in drag.

She's always seemed very nice when I've seen her interviewed.

She's an amazing woman, I mentioned her in the middle of discussions about why drag queens feel the need to imitate the female form. I said something like for them it could be artistic or self-expression and if it's misogynistic to portray that kind of femininity then why don't we apply it to women like Dolly Parton.

From the article -
"Is it true that you once said that it's a good thing you were born a girl, otherwise you would have been a drag queen?"

"Yes, it is true. Because I'm so over-exaggerated and I have so many fans in the gay community, and the drag queens."

I wasn't criticising her or how she presents but pointing out the element of theatricality. She has made the comparison herself. That was all.

Because loads of women enjoy performing feminity and recognise it as such?

We don't tend to go around calling ourselves Cheryl hole etc, dressing up as dead children, and adopting exaggerated usually horrible personalities.

That's the difference.

If it was just the clothes then fine. The package as a whole is what makes it a problem.

Dolly Parton isn't imitating the female form.

Yes she's had surgery but the nuts and bolts of her body and face are just what she looks like.

Sure, but you're still tarring them all with the same brush. That's a bit like calling all GC feminists raging transphobes. Nuance is lacking imo.

Slight tangent but I think Dolly's version of I Will Always Love You trounces Whitney's.

As you were.

Well I mean we're not going to agree.

All I know is that men dressing up as women for laughs was on the telly all the time as a child and I didn't like it then even though I didn't know why. I've hated it all my life. I do and always have seen it as a total piss take of women.

A man with those clothes etc without the rest of it would be no problem for me. They just want to look like that.

Dolly is awesome.

Just found out that being tarred with the same brush refers back to when tarring and feathering was a punishment for thievery. Who knew.
I think regardless of whether offense is taken at drag, the very concept is quite offensive.