Calling out the misogyny in drag is "hate" now

[Ravenclawsome]

Local museum has bought a costume featured on Drag Race.

It's then criticised those that point out that drag is misogynistic. 🙄

www.thecourier.co.uk/fp/news/local/dundee/2385220/ru-pauls-drag-race-dundee-museum-hits-out-at-unacceptable-abuse-over-ellie-diamond-display/

I never said she was imitating the female form . It's an exaggerated look though. She says so herself, and that's fine IMO. Exaggerated femininity isn't offensive to me, it's just something some people enjoy and celebrate. I'm not into it and I think it can create pressure to look a certain way, but I don't think there's anything inherently misogynistic about it. And I know drag queens are male and that's the issue here but I'm just expressing my personal feelings about it.

@NiceGerbil

Well I mean we're not going to agree.

All I know is that men dressing up as women for laughs was on the telly all the time as a child and I didn't like it then even though I didn't know why. I've hated it all my life. I do and always have seen it as a total piss take of women.

A man with those clothes etc without the rest of it would be no problem for me. They just want to look like that.

I totally respect your feelings about that Gerbil. I think you're right in a lot of ways. I just think it's theatre and I don't fully get the appeal, but I don't personally find it offensive anymore than Hugh Grant dressing as a nun in Paddington 2 is offensive to me. If anything it's just a bit silly. However, I do find David Walliams suspect/ offensive / awful. Mean-spirited caricatures and extremely sexist.

Just found out that being tarred with the same brush refers back to when tarring and feathering was a punishment for thievery.

Yes it's a bit of a horrible phrase. I should have thought of something better!

The issue isn't them being male.

It's not about the look.

It's about the whole package.

I don't care who wears makeup heels spangles. Many women never do. It's just clothes. No problem.

And while I don't like it, on the gay scene fine. It's been a big part of parts of the scene for a long time. It is a performance that was created by men and for a certain audience. Generally gay men. It's adult entertainment.

It's pulling it into the mainstream, progs billed as family entertainment. Why drag queen story time is a thing, let alone THE thing baffles me.

It's not about the clothes. It's about the whole package.

I caught a bit of drag race in the UK a year or two ago and I thought let's give it a go maybe I'm wrong. It was worse than I expected.

It's steeped in mysogyny. Which is understandable- many things by men for men are.

It's a piss take of women. That's how I have always reacted.

That's before you get onto 'fishy', the names often relating to an aspect of sex, sometimes just out and out horrible. The fact that Jon Benet is a thing. The unpleasant personalities adopted.

It's not about women not wanting men to adopt aspects of appearance associated with feminity. On top of the other stuff though, the ubiquitous look becomes a part of the 'joke'. And the joke is on women.

Jonbenet

www.google.com/search?q=drag+jonbenet

Fair enough. Maybe you're right . And yes it's weird that it's gone so mainstream. But I guess we live in a society where people are free to be, amongst other things, offensive. I would 100% support a campaign to make the overtly misogynistic elements as unacceptable as blackface etc.

[quote NiceGerbil]Jonbenet

www.google.com/search?q=drag+jonbenet[/quote]
Yes, appalling. I'm heartened to see he only has 95 twitter followers though.

Others for other dead children

More commonly named for sex acts, sexual behaviour, female biology (Anna bortion for example).

Even back in the day as mentioned earlier I remember Cupid stunt, also family entertainment...

It is entertainment for grown ups. If adults want to see it etc then fine. Still misogynist but well. Some women saying It's often just shitty isn't going to do anything!

I'm sure there must be children today who feel the same as I did. I doubt I'm a one off!

There's loads aspiring. Not just 1. Maybe I did the link wrong.

Click images on the Google link. I did fuck it up! It's a whole sub genre.

I am uncomfortable with the blackface comparison tbh

I think the arguments can be made without it and I know it angers a good deal of people and I can understand that so I don't do it.

Misogyny will never go out of fashion. Not in my lifetime in the UK.

Although now trans people are complaining (and giving the same reasons as us) - that may get some traction. Dunno. That aspect is really interesting though about who gets listened to etc.

'But I guess we live in a society where people are free to be, amongst other things, offensive.'

Not without consequence though! If it crosses a line that most people would agree on.

Additionally Kenny Everett was decades ago so having this as family entertainment is hardly new!

(I hate constantly referencing him as even given that character, he was a very interesting man, I enjoyed other parts of the prog although I was little so probably didn't get most of it! And of course he died so tragically young. I mention him because that character is a good example of what I'm talking about).

In the end your view is the mainstream one so while it's an interesting conversation there's no danger things will change!

Not without consequence though! If it crosses a line that most people would agree on.

Of course not without consequences. But I don't think most people do agree, I can't see why it would be so popular otherwise. Not just drag but comedy characters etc - it's even on Mr Tumble!

I assume it's gone mainstream because it's associated with LGBT and a bit (or a lot) of adult humour so it has a veneer of being something a bit progressive, but at the same time very accessible because the songs are typically standards so the audience already knows them (and if lip-synching they don't even have to deal with an unfamilar version) and the comedy and characters are based around well-known tropes rather than anything especially new that might demand effort from the audience.

Plus it's very visual so it plays well on tv and social media, and on the practical side it's a one man show and that man most likely provides his own costumes and does his own makeup so it's cheap and accessible for new entrants and for grassroots venues to put on.

Basically it's old school populist music hall/working man's club type performances with a postmodern zhush up.

What I think is really interesting is envisioning how a female performer would go down in the same outfits telling the same jokes. Can you imagine a group of women in a show like Drag Race, or a woman in drag-like makeup and clothes doing kids' storytime in a library?

@Aspiringmatriarch

Not without consequence though! If it crosses a line that most people would agree on.

Of course not without consequences. But I don't think most people do agree, I can't see why it would be so popular otherwise. Not just drag but comedy characters etc - it's even on Mr Tumble!

No of course they wouldn't!

I was thinking of other topics.

Not about this at all! Sorry wasn't clear.

I'm undecided about the whole drag thing as never really watched much, but I'm not sure you can compare drag queens to everyday men.

If a bloke turns up to an interview in drag is he really still going to benefit from his male privilege or just be seen as a weirdo?

[quote Aspiringmatriarch]I really don't understand this @Aspiringmatriarch. Dolly Parton doesn't look even remotely 'exaggerated' or 'theatrical', so looks like a normal woman, just with better hair care and skin/botox/collagen than most us us can afford. Apart from that she looks like your normal average woman.

Sorry you're struggling to understand. Maybe look at what Dolly has said about this? Here's a link if you're actually interested.

www.georgetakei.com/dolly-parton-drag-queen-dumplin-2622858586.html[/quote]
I wasn't 'struggling to understand' at all, no need for the snark. We're not mindreaders, it would have been good if you explained you were referring to an interview article (that most of us probably didn't even know existed) about herself, in the first place, instead of being so cryptic leading us to believe you thought her looks were exaggerated.

Also - women aren't a 'minority', surely?

Logically you would think not as we are half the population. But it's well-known that we've always been considered a minority as far as power goes. Hence why people talk about women, gay people, people with disabilities and people of colour as vulnerable minorities.

misogynistic to portray that kind of femininity then why don't we apply it to women like Dolly Parton.

How can it be misogynistic for a woman to portray a woman? Misogyny refers to the actions of a man. Dolly, is a woman.

@Aspiringmatriarch

I never said she was imitating the female form . It's an exaggerated look though. She says so herself, and that's fine IMO. Exaggerated femininity isn't offensive to me, it's just something some people enjoy and celebrate. I'm not into it and I think it can create pressure to look a certain way, but I don't think there's anything inherently misogynistic about it. And I know drag queens are male and that's the issue here but I'm just expressing my personal feelings about it.

It's an exaggerated look

Um, what? There is nothing remotely exaggerated about her look! She looks like a normal woman!

Hi Neon, I'm not going to repeatedly engage with someone who tears into other people's posts like this. I think I've been clear about what I meant and I'm not convinced you're responding in good faith so I'm going to leave it there.

I remember Dolly Parton saying on the Graham Norton show (when it used to be good) that she based her look on a drag queen. I have to wonder though, why she felt the need to 'explain' or rationalise her look, just because it's flamboyant. It just seems to me that society demands an explanation when you're not womaning right, but accepts men with unique looks as just that.
But I may just be thinking too deeply about it. I just don't see why it would be a surprise to anyone why a woman in showbusiness would gravitate towards big hair and sequins. It's not like we'd want to see her in business attire.

I thought she based on a local woman who was always done up to the nines and out on the street in the evening.

Seems she adjusts her story over time.. she played that for laughs and now I suspect she still plays it for laughs as in she's gently mocking her own preferred and very distinct look.

I could be wrong. I saw it circa 2000 and have probably lost a fair few grey cells since then.