What is the point of carrying on with my life?

[HadEnoughOfThisLife]

I reckon if I dropped dead on a Wednesday night, it would be maybe 4 days before anyone noticed. Apart from the cat. And he’d only care because he wasn’t getting fed and is too fussy to eat my eyeballs and fingertips.
I live alone, no partner, no close friends, two grown up children; one I text a few times a week and speak to on the phone about once a week, the other….he’ll ignore my messages and get in touch when he wants something off me; no other relatives. I work 3 days a week, (Tues/ Weds in the office, Thurs wfh) go to the gym 3 or 4 times a week and go to a couple of other weekly activities. I’m perfectly friendly and chatty at work and these activities but don’t have any contact with those people other than when we are face to face. I meet up for a walk and a coffee with one friend once a week, and another friend once every few weeks, but we rarely engage other than to arrange meet ups. They have families, friends and busy lives. Other than that I have no day to day interactions with anyone except if I buy something in a shop. (“Would you like a bag/your receipt?’ etc) or the occasional “Hi how are you?’ chats with neighbours.

From a philosophical point of view, my life is meaningless. I am not content on my own but can’t seem to make meaningful friendships. I’ve been single for 15+ years, and know I am a bit odd and shy so please don’t say ‘all you need to do is join groups, friendships take time, put yourself out there, ask people for a coffee’ etc etc. I am just not that kind of person, so you could say it is all my own fault.

I feel like Woolworths or the local pub on the corner that closes down. Everyone is sad because it has always been there in the background, but nobody actually went and spent time or money there.

I’m not depressed in the clinical sense, but what is the point of carrying on with my life?

@HadEnoughOfThisLife some smart arse will be along to suggest you look in to Rational Emotive Behavioural Therapy (based on Stoicism). I suggest this:

take a tea towel into the garden (or another outside space), place it over your head so that it is covering your face. Then stand on one leg and say the word “bibble” loudly and clearly one hundred times, keeping your leg raised (this is essential). Do this daily.

Why? I've googled and can't find anything.

I think it's hard when the kids grow up and have their own lives, because you've just spent the last (at least!) 18 years giving them your all, for them to grow up and not need you in the same way. But that's what's supposed to happen, and it means you've done your job well!

I don't think we can expect our kids to be in touch all the time. They have their own lives to live.

It's all about trying to make something of your own life at this point. Maybe try starting a new business, learning a new skill, trying a new hobby.

Meaning doesn't just come to us in life, we have to find it.

But one thing I can tell you is that there IS a point in your life, and your children would very much miss you, even if they're not in touch daily at the moment.

Another one here. I'm actually thinking of death as a solace. But @HadEnoughOfThisLife you are going to die; we all are. So why not stick around for the small pleasures in your life? I love hugging my DS (will get a cat when he's older:), enjoy a good meal, a walk in nature, a good book. All small things but they make it worthwile to not off myself.

If I had to do this everyday I might as well die straight away.

I think my brother might have felt a bit like this at times. He’d reached his late 50s, had a job he enjoyed where he was valued but was on his own a lot, lived alone and had no children. He was important to many people, but those people had partners and children so maybe we fitted him in around other commitments. He had hobbies he enjoyed, and he was thinking about what retirement might look like.

Then he was diagnosed with a brain tumour and he died two months later. What I took from those last few weeks was how fucking much he fought to live. Living is the whole point.

The hole he left in the world is huge and irreparable.

This is it; this is what we have, and it’s not forever.

@Friendlygingercat - hugs

Continually looking for the meaning of life is like looking for the meaning of toast.
It is sometimes better just to eat the toast.
This has stuck with me from The Comfort Book

I think that if you can reframe the thinking - it is all about taking risks. If you worry about the outcome too much you won’t do anything. Take a risk , move, travel, change jobs etc - if it doesn’t work out you always make a new decision to change again.
One thing is certain that if you don’t actively take the plunge / nothing will change.

Try to not cast yourself as a victim but reframe your thoughts to think about what you want life to look like. Take some small steps towards that / or even big ones.

"I am not content on my own but can’t seem to make meaningful friendships. I’ve been single for 15+ years, and know I am a bit odd and shy so please don’t say ‘all you need to do is join groups, friendships take time, put yourself out there, ask people for a coffee’ etc etc. I am just not that kind of person, so you could say it is all my own fault."

I have picked this quote out because it seems to outline your central problem. You are not content on your own. But you are too shy to make friendships.

I'm not sure that your post is about meaning. Meaning can be so many things and very different for different people. People have suggested easy ways of meeting people because you have outlined that you are not content on your own and want more or better friendships. Meaningful friendships, I'm not sure what this means, but if you mean deeper friendships, well they do tend to grow out of smaller beginnings so thinking about the smaller beginnings is a way to start.

But the big thing that is missing in this post is interests. Meaningful friendships often come about because you have things in common and things to share and do together. This can be about life stages and then friendships may change and move on. But they can also be to do with real interests you have in common.

It is hard if you are shy or awkward to do those initial steps. It is also setting the net so very wide many of those interactions might not lead to deeper friendships. So this is why looking at it from the other end, in terms of interests, could be more productive.

There is so much to learn and that is fascinating about the world. I don't know what kinds of things interest you. There are more low-key hobbies people have, but there is also finding out about ideas and learning, adult education, university of the third age, going to talks and lectures, actual learning that takes you further and further into something. You have already said you are quite interested in the idea of philosophy. Would this be a place to start? There is so much on offer these days and so much learning one can add in oneself from reading, the internet, many documentaries online and on youtube. There are online courses, and in-life courses. There are book and other festivals where you can hear people discuss ideas. There are lots of interesting special interest podcasts. Depending on whether you are close to a bigger town or city, there might be events or centres or even meetup groups centred around these things. There are forums where people talk about more specific interests and as you develop your interests perhaps it becomes easier to interact and it can help to feel a bit less shy. These things tend to be virtuous circles where doing leads to less fearfulness and so on.

I'm not sure if I'm the opposite of you, but I find the idea of being No 1 isn't what makes me find meaning. For me, I find more meaning when faced with the enormity of the world and how I'm a small part of this amazing intricate complex thing. I find the idea of that vastness awe-inspiring and it seems like the falseness of social media, all the flannel, the endless comparisons and material one-upmanship seems very unimportant and can even just feel funny and joyous to watch from afar. I like watching and knowing about the animals all around me. I watch them competing and patrolling their territories and making their dens and nests and the battle to eat enough to survive the winter. I find this constant activity and tapestry of survival awe-inspiring and I find it comforting to feel a part of something a lot bigger and to know there are millions of creatures living all sorts of lives all around us and I am just a part of that and they all have their own priorities. I find that comforting.

For me, meaning in the old-fashioned sense like an authority telling us how to live and what to believe could be a trap, it depends how you look at it. It can be a freedom to be able to shake off the "meaning" that can so often be imposed by other humans.

If not ideas or philosophy, there are so many things to find out more about and by doing so you expand how you see the world. It's like dropping a stone in water and the rings go out and out. Whether it's something more cultural like music or the arts or literature, or learning more about science, the history of science, medicine, politics, there are so many fascinating things that add to our everyday experience and make it richer. I think we as a society have started to see learning only in terms of earning more money or careers, but learning enhances life. If you know more about history then walking down the street can be a completely different experience and what you see is transformed from functional and meaningless, to full of signs and symbols of meaning about the past and how it relates to the present. If you study nature you see it everywhere and a walk in an urban environment becomes a rich environment of all sorts of small hidden creatures and their lives completely parallel to us. If you study art or music you start to see or hear the world in a different way that brings richness and interest to all sorts of more ordinary experiences. These days there is more access to the ability to find out about things than ever before.

In terms of deeper friendships, deciding to really learn about something and finding out your real interests and pursuing them or researching them more, can bring you into contact with like-minded people, whether through courses or groups or in the day to day. It can give you a subject to share and talk about and it can help if you are shy.

I find life absolutely stuffed full of meaning. I feel really curious about so many things that sometimes I feel sad that there are so many branches of life I won't have time to really understand.

But that being said, there have been times in my life where I have felt really so grey, so lacking in energy and so pointless and purposeless and times I've been very depressed. Sometimes being down for me can manifest as a lack of any motivation or interest and energy in anything. For me, feeling down is often about grey "what's the point"ness. So I would not dismiss those suggesting that you might be down or even depressed. Good luck and I hope you can find some ways of making even small steps. Sometimes things are spirals and if we can just turn it around and take those first steps that we know might help, it can lead to other things and then start to create a more positive circle. All best to you, OP.

@Friendlygingercat I came back because I read your post very late last night and didn't want to comment without real thought.

I think chronic intense physical pain is a very different thing to some of the other issues raised on this thread. It's perhaps even less discussed than mental pain, so I can imagine you feel very alone. I really, really feel for you.

I wanted to urge you to explore every possible avenue in terms of pain management.

Women are catastrophically and structurally discriminated against when it comes to chronic pain because of an entrenched misogynist belief that pain is part of the female condition, and we are consequently built to endure it. We internalise and punish ourselves with this convenient construct - but that's all it is, a construct.

Relatedly, I know that it's true that in some conditions pain really cannot be truly managed. But there are many others in which pain is presented by GPs as being intractable, when it isn't at all.

GPs have incredibly broad but usually also incredibly shallow knowledge (not a criticism, GPs - I think it's probably the only way the job can be done.) They are often a decade or so out of touch with significant bodies of research.

Please, start making yourself a total thorn in the side of the NHS? Begin with your GP and when fobbed off, write a complaint, quickly. Don't give benefit of the doubt, don't be sentimental - escalate rapidly to the next level, citing research on the health system's structural tendency to dismiss women's pain and sounding - not litigious, exactly, but like you're not afraid to make complaints to statutory bodies and name names. Your first emails will take you half a day to draft, but soon you will have a google doc that you can quickly cut-and-paste from for the next escalation.

If you possibly can, be relentless until they refer you to a pain/palliative specialist. Then carry on being 'demanding' until you are absolutely certain they have given you everything they can.

Ask to be put into trials. Insist they respond to your questions about new approaches (see below) such that they demonstrate that they are familiar with them. If they're uninformed, raise a concern. Be determined and unashamed (but know when you've found one of the good ones, and show them they are appreciated. In my experience palliative medicine is populated with many good ones.)

Your post is brief, but even so it's clear that your life is well-led and satisfying - and that you are someone with resilience, clarity and determination. So, while you are waiting for the NHS to give you what you are entitled to, research as widely as you can all aspects of pain theory.

Read around all the evidence-based approaches - but also definitely look into athe apparently woo stuff - at least some of yesterday's woo is today's evidence-based research. You'll come across grifters - but they will usually have built their quackery on a kernel of someone else's serious work, and you can then follow that trail.

It is (I hope this doesn't sound like I'm making light of the real life reasons we are discussing this) a deeply interesting area, and intersects with many of the things that interest me and maybe you - neuroscience but also the conceptual brain-mind-body structure (I know there is a real word for this), both in terms of 'mind over matter' but also how we construct reality, consciousness, things like that. Also (for me) the growing awareness amongst serious researchers that inflammation impacts pretty much everything - not just individual conditions but also the experience of pain.

You don't have to 'master' all this or even understand it in whole chunks - particularly important to know, since pain makes learning hard. Just skim it when you can, retaining dribs and drabs.

Find other ways to absorb it - Instagram science communicators or podcasts. . A subscription to chatgpt is incredibly useful for distilling dense research accessibly - you're not doing a PhD.

You will quickly have a good enough grasp of the approaches to and vocabulary of pain to understand which are worth pursuing in depth - and also, to be able to confidently raise them with your palliative consultant.

All this also goes for researching your specific condition too - I'm sure you've done this and perhaps become exhausted and demoralised. If you can pick it up again, you may find new avenues; the purposefulness of the research process can sometimes help too.

Again, I'm sure you have done this, but if not find the forums and closed facebook groups where people discuss their experiences and what has worked for them. 'Support community' is such a cliched term but they can be life-changing.

To return to inflammation, I would be looking into any lifestyle change I could make to reduce it, primarily through the gut microbiome - no-UPFs, lots of fermented foods, 30-plants-per-week, no or little meat, etc etc. Some argue that this is just the most recent faddy/culty/money-making diet extremism, but I'm definitely a 'this is the right side of history' person on this. Every month more peer-reviewed evidence emerges. I really like @drkaranrajan on Instagram for bite-size evidence based non-woo communication on all this stuff.

Also in 'self-help' (such a gaslighty phrase but..): sleep - so critical in regulating inflammation and just plain-old 'ability to cope', and such a horrendous vicious circle when you can't do it. I'd force my GP to give me handfuls of sleeping pills - again, if they are difficult on this, cite research on GPs not taking female pain seriously. Sometimes you just need to break the cycle of escalating sleep deficit by any means possible, even if only intermittently.

If you are inclined, alongside the 'pain theory' research I mentioned above, the 'philosophy of' aspects might also interest you. Nietszche on the funtion/meaning of pain in real life (absolutely no need to read the dense primary texts, 'beginners guides' totally sufficient) might be both interesting and useful in making sense of the position you find yourself in.

Stoicism is Nietszche-adjacent (in this) but more 'applied' in that it offers some genuinely practical approaches to bearing the almost-unbearable. (Avoid Schopenhauer unless you are interested enough to survive his deeply depressing overall analysis long enough to reach the 'solution'. Disclaimer: as I'm sure anyone with real knowledge will have immediately seen, IANAPhilosopher)

Regarding the plans you are making: I think you would find some truly non-judgemental in-person talking support incredibly helpful while you sift through your thoughts and feelings on this. If you can afford it, I would recommend a psychodynamic psychotherapist (not CBT, interpersonal or humanistic, maybe integrative if you can't find psychodynamic). Please do not go with a counsellor - insufficient training for this, and definitely can do more harm than good (to themselves and the client).

If you can't afford psychotherapy and live in or near London, you can self-refer to The Listening Place - it offers face-to-face weekly sessions to people experiencing suicidal feelings (very different from Samaritans). This is not counselling or therapy, but active listening by well-trained volunteers (who importantly, have their own supervision sessions). They are not shocked by and crucially, do not have a 'position on' suicide - they will not try to dissuade you and nothing is unsayable - they are able to hear everything you say and 'bear' it, which friends or family simply cannot do.

Separate from the suicidal feelings themselves is the pain of being unable to express them - being able to do so safely, without guilt, shame or worry for others, can provide real emotional relief in the now (I'm consciously not saying anything like 'can help you overcome these feelings'). If you don't live near London, give them a call and ask if there is anything similar near you.

I'm sorry this has turned into such a ridiculous essay, and also if my tone is annoying or feels patronising - I am ND and I know I often sound didactic and bossy, but when I try to make gentle tentative suggestions etc I just sound horribly head-tilty and fake, I can't bear to hear myself.

I'm also very aware that this could all read as another fucking exhausting To Do list from someone who has no idea what you live with and how little you have left. The life you have created for yourself sounds pretty wonderful to me and I know you will have worked with intention to achieve it - but I also know that those capacities can be completely used up, finished, by the experience of pain/trauma. I'm sorry if this feels like a kind of stick. I did hesitate before posting but decided that there was an equal possibility of you find something useful here.

Also aware that you might not share any of my intellectual interests and that therefore my suggestions re philosophy could come across as patronising wankerness/ dick-swinging. Really really sorry if so - I'm genuinely mentioning them in a take-it-or-leave-it way. If I'd been helped by religion I might throw that it too - please do take it in that spirit and bat it off if it's just bollocks from your POV.

Anyway. I think as much as anything I wanted you to know that I and others had heard what you said and were thinking about you.

@HadEnoughOfThisLife, I also was thinking about you and what you said about probably being neurodivergent but not wanting to pursue it further.

It does sound as though you actually have a normal-ish amount of contact with your adult children, but also that you feel you don't get enough attention or care from them. Your tone reminds me of how I can sometimes feel about things like this - a combination of catastrophising somewhat, but also feeling victimised or hard done by, and (sorry) centring your own needs. I hope this isn't too painful to hear - as I said, I recognise those feelings.

Your responses to some of the (admittedly annoying) posts here might also show that a. you feel criticised pretty easily and b. that you find being criticised hard to bear.

Rejection Sensitivity Disorder is very prevalent with both ADHD and autism - the above responses are very typical of RSD, and it can have a huge impact on us and those around us.

Alongside the other philosophical and canine suggestions I made, I think that pursuing a diagnosis might be really useful - no cure, obviously, but meds can reduce the RSD.

Even if you decide not to medicate, RSD as a concept is really useful as a prism for self-understanding and acceptance. Some of these traits can (I know from my own experience) read as narcissism to others - I think for me a diagnosis enabled me to face that painful fact, but also to forgive myself (with therapy), and that really did have an impact on my relationships and my overall - not happiness exactly, but experience of the world.

You couldn’t be further from the truth assuming I want to be centre stage.

I don’t see why I can’t get irritated or be sarcastic with all the responses that are a variation of ‘join a club’ when I expressly said that is not what I am looking for. And I’ve been called a cunt for saying so, so who is the one actually getting offended?

You don't have to stay alive because you owe it to others, but you can't take your life (or attempt to) because you're bored.

It is my life and I can do what I want with it. I am perfectly well aware that it would upset my children which is why I am still alive.

It’s not that I don’t want to do anything about it, but I find connecting difficult, I always have done.

Lots of people on this thread have stated that I am a miserable, snippy, spiteful, sarcastic and ungrateful person. If I really am like that, then why would anyone want to get to know me?

Sorry OP, but what is the point of your thread?

You just keep repeating that life is meaningless, well yes it is unless you attribute a meaning to it yourself through religion or social connections or whatever. But it makes you angry when people make suggestions along those lines. Evolutionarily, the meaning of life is to pass on your genes which you have done, but that clearly hasn't helped you.

So what is this thread about? Is it to shout into a void that you are lonely? Is it to be understood that you find life meaningless ( this is a common lament after all)?

Instead of saying what you don't want from this thread, maybe if you told people what you do want you may get answers that you find less anger inducing.

Thank you for your insight, and thank you for the book suggestions.

Your life sounds quite peaceful and varied to me. You have friends you have children. You’re active and have no one to answer to, you can do whatever you wish! Try to reframe your thinking

All I know about you is what you've said and your replies to the posts. It's pointless me saying anything as everything seems to rub you up the wrong way. There's been a lot of great advice on here, from doing something to improve the social life you're not happy about, to getting therapy for depression or a diagnosis and help for the ADHD, book recommendations and support. I wish you all the best and hope you get some help.

Damn, the miserable cunt mask has slipped… 😏

I probably am slightly depressed, but if I went to the GP I would get directed down the ‘do some exercise and self administered CBT’ route, which I have done before (the CBT) and found it made me more miserable as it was a thing that should have sorted me out but it didn’t, ("just think happy thoughts and ignore the ones that are making you feel bad") so there was another thing I failed at.

Thanks, I’m miles away unfortunately.

How exciting to be heading off! I would love to go somewhere warmer and do have vague plans of doing that in the future. I can hear all those PPs shouting ‘go and do it now then!’ but as I am sure you know, the reality is a little more complicated than just packing a suitcase and getting on a plane.

It is. I'm single and don't have kids - both deliberate choices to allow me to get on a plane when I can. I figured out early that this is lifesaving for me. And yes, I do get cross when people get judgey about this or imply it's a fun jetsetting lifestyle. It's often hard and lonely and impoverished, like right now. But for me, it's the only way I can even semi-cope with the lifelong depression.

What do you think I have been doing for the last couple of decades? Nothing but being responsible for my own life, and the lives of two children and a cat.

If my life is my responsibility then why shouldn’t I end it if I want to? Why should I worry that it will upset anyone else? Surely it is their responsibility to get over it and live a better life?

At last! A sensible suggestion

No, nobody would ever accept it. Suicide is a completely selfish act. Whatever is going on with you OP is temporary. Perhaps look at videos of people who attempted suicide and how they are glad they didn't succeed.

As @thestudiosays, there is no point. Do you read Bill Bryson? I generally think he's an idiot but his 'meaning of life' book ends with 'life just wants to be', which I think is right. Evolution has no feelings. I find the story of King Canute strangely comforting too, everyone else is just trying to hold back the tide. And the worst of us humans are the most obsessive about that tide, look at the billionaires trying to live forever!