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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 15/04/2020 22:43

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
BigChocFrenzy · 15/04/2020 22:47

Grin Everyone welcome to 5:2 thread # 90 ! Grin

We’re a very friendly bunch;
come join us

OP posts:
emcla · 15/04/2020 22:50

Thanks for the new thread bigchoc.

BrioLover · 16/04/2020 00:19

Thanks for the new thread!

Sorry about your aunt nose.

FD for me tomorrow. I'm working in the morning so that will help keep me busy, and then activities with the kids in the afternoon which again will help. I'll eat dinner which will be a Malaysian veggie soup with (some) noodles.

DietChic · 16/04/2020 07:28

Thanks for the new thread - checking in! Raring for some breakfast too!

BigChocFrenzy · 16/04/2020 09:06

Good luck, Brio
Sounds a good FD plan

I hope you enjoyed your breakfast, Chic
Now you've the energy for a 5 minute HIIT workout, say ! < tempting >

OP posts:
Waspie · 16/04/2020 09:34

So sorry for your loss nose Flowers

Thank you for the new thread BCF.

Going well on your B2B emcla and well done on your FD yesterday Chic.

I'll join you and Brio with an FD emcla. I'm back at work today so that will keep me busy Brew

noseovertail · 16/04/2020 11:05

thanks again everyone Flowers and thanks for the new thread bcf

good luck to everyone fasting today, I am aiming for a good NFD with no alcohol Shock

enjoy your breakfast chic Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 16/04/2020 12:11

Sounds a good healthy NFD plan, nose

and everyone on NFDs remember
"No snacking between meals, ever"

OP posts:
badger82 · 16/04/2020 12:44

FD for me today. Did a 40 min HIIT in the park this morning - now chilling with the kids. Herbal tea at the ready!

HandsDownRoundTheTown · 16/04/2020 13:12

Hi everyone. I’ve been off thread for a bit but sticking with the 5/2 thru this madness. The only week I have fallen over on was Easter when I just ate chocolate and drank wine!

Still doing B2B fast days - usually M and T but it was T and W this week and finding them ok as I work full hours on those days and just try not to stop at all until 5.

Wishing everyone all the best with their FDs and pat on the back all round for sticking at it in Covid chaos. Smile

HandsDownRoundTheTown · 16/04/2020 13:14

If anyone has a good butternut soup recipe wld love a linkie Smile

gigi556 · 16/04/2020 14:14

I'm thinking of joining you all but still on the fence. I've been eating better and tracking cals on my Fitbit app the last couple of days. Just reading Fast 800 and am about halfway through. Just wondering how i can possibly eat only 800 cals when I'm struggling on twice that amount 🤦🏻‍♀️ Can anyone on here tell me if your body gets used to it? Also, how do you maintain your mindset. I've had a couple of false starts with weightloss in the last year and I want to find something I can stick with. The idea of some rapid weightloss at the beginning would definitely motivate me. I got really discouraged last year when I felt like I put in loads of effort and lost like half a pound or no weight at all - even in the early days.

I struggle with sweets and carbs so feel BSD would be good for me. I've done low carb in the past but want something more manageable long term.

I'm 37 years old, 4'10" and weigh 142lbs. I'd like to lose about 10lbs. More would be great but I've never really been smaller than 132 (except a VERY short stint doing low carb 15 years ago) so I can't comprehend it. BMI is 29 and I'm feeling pretty rubbish.

inthethickofit19 · 16/04/2020 14:31

So sorry for your loss @noseovertail Thanks

I managed a FD on Tuesday. Have one planned tomorrow. In the meantime I'm sticking to drinking lots of water and not snacking..

inthethickofit19 · 16/04/2020 14:32

@gigi556 it's difficult when your tdee is low (sounds like me) but your body absolutely does get used to it. People often see quick results and it's very motivating to read the thread.

gigi556 · 16/04/2020 15:02

@ inthethickofit19 thanks for the words of encouragement. Yes, I guess my TDEE is a bit low. Will only get lower when I lose the weight. Eek. I'm going to finish the book and follow this thread. Will pipe up when I decide if I'm game. I want to see if my husband will join me... He has a couple of stone to lose. We've both put on weight since my son was born 3 years ago.
The one thing I have going for me is I actually really enjoy exercising and I'm pretty active. I guess I'm also worried about getting hungry on running days and also around my period. Does anyone find this more difficult to stick to around their menstrual cycle days?

welshmumofboys · 16/04/2020 15:25

I'm so sorry about your loss @noseovertail

I'm on my second fast day and considerably hungrier than Tuesday. It's my own fault though, I've just worked out that I've not eaten any protein today 🤦‍♀️ I need to make sure I plan plenty of protein into my fast days. I had a boiled egg on Tuesday and that must have helped.

@HandsDownRoundTheTown I had butternut squash soup for lunch today, but afraid I cheated and am using the chilled Tesco one (had half for lunch Tuesday and half today).

BigChocFrenzy · 16/04/2020 15:37

Welcome, Gigi 🙂

I suggest you start with 5:2, with 2 FDs on 500 cals and then sensible eating (within TDEE) on the 5 NFDs

That will get you used to fasting, but is not so full on as Fast800.
AFter 2-3 weeks, you can decide what you want to continue with

Those with low TDEE need to be even more careful than the rest of us about
5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

  • NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals - eat meals, nothing between
  • AIm for a daily eating window of no more than 12 hours, called 12:12 e.g. first meal at 8am and finish last meal by 8pm
  • On NFDs, you can have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own
  • Lots of water & veg each day
  • Cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 16/04/2020 15:46

Good luck on your FD, badger, Welshmum and any other Thursday fasters

HandsDown Fancy any of these butternut squash recipes ?

www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/butternut-squash-sage-soup

www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/thai-squash-soup

www.bbcgoodfood.com/recipes/spiced-lentil-butternut-squash-soup

OP posts:
Waspie · 16/04/2020 16:03

"No snacking between meals, ever" This has been my mantra since beginning this journey BCF. It's so easy, particularly when working from home to think "ooh this teeny digestive biscuit with my 3pm cup of tea can't hurt" and it's habit rather than hunger (in my case anyway).

Hi gigi. I'm doing 5:2 with my partner and I think it's harder to fall off the wagon if there is someone else around encouraging you. Although you will get lots of encouragement and support from this community too of course.

I'm a relative newbie and have been doing 5:2 and sticking to TDEE for the other five days since beginning of February and I've found that if I get hungry it's usually because I'm not hydrated enough (or I'm bored). When I feel hungry I have a glass of water. If I feel really hungry I clean my teeth and then have a glass of water. It sounds trite but it does work Smile

I don't think IF/5:2 is a quick weight loss program; it's more a lifestyle and health change. I also thought I would be really down if I didn't see quick and impressive results but it's helped me to think of IF as a long term change rather than a diet. I could diet; I have good willpower and could lose weight on a very strict low calorie diet if I put my mind to it but then I'd stop when I'd lost the weight and then gradually gain it back again. And that's what I want to avoid. I want to break bad habits and adopt good (sustainable) new ones.

Quite a few of us fasting today it seems. Hope your days are going okay welshmum and badger.

Glad to hear you are still doing well Hands Smile

BrioLover · 16/04/2020 16:10

2 hours till dinner. I am so hungry! Not as easy as on Tuesday. Going to make myself a tea with a splash of oat milk (I've got the calories) and that should tide me over.

BigChoc I think I've missed the reason why we don't snack on NFDs - can you point me in the right direction please?

emcla · 16/04/2020 20:27

B2b done. Having a cup of tea now. Did a mini on mon. Not a great idea as was very hungry on tues. have to maintain good habits over the weekend now.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/04/2020 20:46

Why we shouldn't snack (For brio )

Mosely and most other fasting experts recommend no snacking between meals

Snacks were popularised by BIg Food around 1980, to increase profits.
They also helped increase waistlines.

Even "healthy" snacks - like fruit or dipping veg - keep insulin raised and hence reduce the time in which your body can burn fat.
And the most common / tempting snacks are not even healthy

Also, human studies show that most people consume more calories in a 24-hour period if they snack,
because the reduction in meal size (if any) is usually less than the calories contained in all the snacks.

You can lose despite snacking, but it will be slower than without.
So, any treats - lattes, alcohol, crisps, biscuits, cake etc -
and even "healthy" nibbles like fruit, nuts, yoghurt etc should only be as part of a meal.

Broad definition of a snack is that it is less than 3 hrs away from a meal

Snacks are ok for those who need to gain weight, e.g. underweight DC - but this applies to only a few people in the West

Snacking has caused a fundamental change for most of the population, compared to many millennia of evolution

  • almost no traditional eating culture includes snacking.

Each 24 hour day with snacks is now insulin-dominant (graph 2) instead of fasting-dominant (graph 1), see graphs from Dr Jason Fung:

5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals
5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals
OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 16/04/2020 20:51

Brilliant, emcla
Well done on your b2b

OP posts:
welshmumofboys · 16/04/2020 21:23

Well done @emcla on your b2b.

I'm finishing my second fast day at 463 calories.

emcla · 16/04/2020 21:44

Thanks guys.

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