5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Well done, Harriet, Bestbees

Tomorrow's plan sounds good, Moan

Just catching up with the thread. Lots of good FDs and minis

I had my usual FD on Monday and will have another tomorrow. I do need to find some alternative meals though - much as I like tuna salad and omelettes it would be good to have some variety.

I'm giving blood on Friday morning. A little wary of this following a FD but if I have a good breakfast I think I will be okay.

My nfd hasn't gone very well. I felt quite hungry and craving treats so ended up eating quite a lot extra. Will keep trying.

Bestbees the aubergine sounds delish! Must add to my (small ATM) repertoire

Waspie Can you make tomorrow a miniFD instead ?

Don't worry about it, Stripey
but think whether there were any triggers:

Was it hunger, or just boredom, stress, other emotions ?

Were you drinking enough water - the best drink

• sweet fizzy drinks can spike insulin, even diet ones

How many meals do you have per day ? would you be better with say 4 meals ?
Did you start snacking between meals ? Once you start, it spirals
Train yourself to hold out until the next meal, which is usually not that long away

Were you hungry - maybe your meals weren't big enough ?
Too many carbs and not enough protein ?
Bread or white rice can be triggers for some folk - move to smaller portions of these

Try the resistant starch trick i.e. cook rice / pasta / potato and let it cool, then eat cold or reheat and the insulin impact will be lower

Did you eat fruit on its own instead of as part of a meal ? - the high sugar peak would spike hunger
Did you have sweet breakfast cereal / fruit juice / dried fruit / more than 2 portions fruit in 1 day ?
Again can be a problem if you are insulin resistant
Move to more veg (different kinds) and less fruit

Finished yesterday with 120 cals left over which includes exercise calories. We’ve been doing the joe wicks workout every day this week (slacked off over Easter!) and I find it burns 140-160 calories for me. Food has been a bit stodgy recently and having burger and chips twice in three days (birthday girl’s request) didn’t help. Half a pound up this morning; not thrilled but could have been worse. Hopefully next week I can fit in two minis when no one is having a birthday . Very impressed with anyone who is doing proper FDs at this point!

Down another lb today so three off this week. I know next week will be harder and less of a loss but still please.
Good luck fasters today. Will eat breakfast. This morning but skip on my other NFD to practise!

I need help already, I’m on week 1 day 4.
I’ve done my 2 FD’s this week and I’m pleased that the scales are showing a 2lb loss but its the NFDs I’m struggling with. I’m so good with FD’s I usually do it on a day I’m busy to keep me preoccupied. However at the end of my NFD Yesterday I caved and ate a full bag of pop corn and a packet of crisp and I no it’s not the end of the world but why can’t I stop. I’m not even hungry it’s like a food devil inside wants feeding and usually it wants crisp and chocolate.
I’m glad it hasn’t effected my weight loss but I only have a stone to loose so I know when the weight loss slows these are the sabotages that are going to stop me loosing weight and those last few lbs. I’ve tried brushing my teeth after my last meal and I tell myself I won’t have it but I literally can’t resist. I have to tell myself no because I can’t moderate either, I can’t have a square of chocolate because then I’ll want more. I also live with others too so I can’t ask them to stop buying it or hiding it without telling them what I’m doing and I know they won’t approve so I don’t want to do that. Please help, what do you do if you’re like this?

@moanranger have you also just started fasting too?

My plan is a go for an Earlish walk each morning for anything between half an hour - an hour (depending how long dd will walk with me).

Come home do some work while dd is doing school work and then sunbathe if its nice if not cleaning.

Then i workout around 4/5 evenings per week.

As im doing 16:8 and your doing 5:2 it might be interesting to see how weight loss differs between us 😀

So i was 10.0.3 yesterday and started fasting so now i have to desperately try not to weigh myself for atleast a week. I am obsessed with weighing but i know if i am trying to loose weight and the scales dont budge it will really make me feel terrible and i will give up!

Is everyone else weighing once per week? I might ask dd to hide ny scales

@bestbees 3lbs down this week thats amazing how long have you been fasting? How much have you lost so far and how much more do you need to loose?

I am currently 10 stone, i havnt been this weight for over 3 years and it scares me.

I stopped smoking 5 months ago and since then my weight has gone up. Before that I was between 9-9.3 which is my comfortable weight although i would love to get below 9 stone of i could!

@Hellokitty105 great news on your weightloss. Just before lockdown i did a low carb diet and found I wasn't as hungry, when i eat lots of carbs i find im always craving more rubbish and i can much through piles of chocolate and biscuits.

What type of food are you eating on nfd's?

Hi upside!
First week back on fasting. I started at 10.7
I did it a couple of years ago and got down to 9.8. I then did it on and off to keep weight around 9.10. An injury plus lock down has seen my weight sky rocket. We are shielding so much harder to exercise!
The lightest I have been is 9.3 but I don't think I can maintain that really! I am 5.3 but chunky build, and when get below 9.7 I just have a gaunt face an no bum!

Hello kitty, I am exactly like you. NFD much harder for me. I am trying just for now, to basically accept that, an hope that by being a little kinder that i will slow the temptations. Also going to make sure I have big satisfying meals, and good snacks to hand (olives, cheese, fruit, veg and hummus) so that if I do fall off the wagon it is into something nutritious! I wonder if having one day a week where you can eat whatever you like might be helpful, as it limits the damage and helps you stay on the path the rest of the time?

Good luck fasters today.

I plan my meals and I think I eat quite healthily. NFD could be eggs for breakfast, salads for dinner and fish/chicken veg for tea. I don’t snack in between but occasionally might have fruit and Greek yogurt as a pud after my tea on a NFD. I feel like I can do a few good days then I spoil it. I don’t want to get into a binge, restrict cycle but sometimes I can’t help feel like this is what I’m doing. I’ve done 5:2 before and I never had this problem then but I just seem to be struggling this time. I’m not sure if it’s boredom as I’m not hungry when I’m craving it and normally I work full time so I’m not used to being in the house all the time with all this temptation. Weirdly last night I think I saw someone eat chocolate on telly and it made me want it 😂 I’m usually to busy to sit and watch telly in the evenings so maybe it’s the change in my routine that’s effecting me too.

Morning - I am going to be on a mini today and another mini on Saturday to mix it up a bit.

hellokitty I am very much the same as you - I have lovely meals planned in perfectly and then I go to the supermarket on my one trip out and buy a multipak of Frazzles to scoff. I find myself thinking 'why am I eating this' without any answers. Since doing 5:2 I have got better at controlling the binges but it still happens occasionally. I always wonder if I could get some form of hypnotherapy to help with this aspect.

Things that have worked to help me are: change what I am doing i.e. stop watching TV and go to clear up the kitchen or go for a walk (in pre-lockdown), start a hands on project i.e. knitting, garden planning, scrap booking to stop intrusive thoughts.

hellokitty I agree that if something triggers you to eat when you are feeling this way, then it's really hard to stop after a small amount that would be ok e.g. One square of chocolate is impossible. Although you might be able to eat just one square at other times. So probably you think you can have a small amount and that's fine since it's a NFD but really you shouldn't even start.

I think it may be partly some kind of hormonal imbalance that is driving you to fill up on carbs. When I did keto we used to say something could "kick you out of ketosis" and you would then feel hungry and crave carbs. Of course on 5:2 you aren't in ketosis but maybe your appetite could be affected in a similar way if your insulin etc get slightly out of balance for some reason. It might not even be to do with what you ate but something else.

Congratulations on your SV, BestBees
An excellent start back

Congratulations on your SV too and a good start, Kitty

It sounds like you have a problem with junk carbs
I suggest you cut them out totally, don't attempt to ration, as that is more difficult
As pp have suggested, you could go hard ore and do low carb for a month or two, to break the carb cravings

cut out snacks totally - eat meals, nothing between or after supper.
That's important for almost everyone
Make it a non-negotiable, a hard rule you never break

The usual tactics to help are:
. drink a big glass of water
. do a few minutes vigorous exercise e.g. Shred, Tabata, dna ing, pressups, squats, gardenjng etc
. clean your teeth, floss and gargle with strong mouthwash so you have a v stron tatse left

Well done on your NFD, sydney
Remember that
on your FDs there is no allowance for exercise calories

Upsidedown yes, it will be interesting to compare results. Bear in mind tho that two individuals could get completely different results on the same regime. I am not weighing until I finish a fortnight of this, so will let you know next week.
Agree that FDs are in some way easier, butI think that is because you know it is only 24 hours- v different if you were trying to restrict yourself to 500 cals for weeks on end!
I am trying to re-frame NFDs into FDs+, that is structured like FDs but with more cals & greater variety. It is early days for me tho. After next week, I will see what tweaks I need to make.
FD today, so far so good. 3.5 mi walk, black coffee only, sun tea brewing on patio & broccoli soup awaits me for when I get hungry. Various activities now planned to keep my mind off food.

I was thinking of a mini instead BCF but I've realised my appointment tomorrow is actually later than I thought at 2.30pm so I'll be able to have breakfast and lunch (and lots of water) before I go and give blood so I think I'll be fine to have my usual FD today.

I find it impossible to have one of something as well kitty, lurcher and moonlight. If I have a little then I'll want more! So I'm just trying to not eat snacks at all. I don't think I have an alternative. We have crisps and biscuits in the house for DS but I've reorganised the kitchen cupboards and dedicated one as the "Carb cupboard" and I just don't open that one at all. I sometimes treat myself to a packet of crisps with my lunch on an NFD if it means I can stay within TDEE.

I did low carb (Atkins) about 20 years ago and lost 3.5 stones and then managed to maintain until I had DS (12 yo). But I tried it again last summer and was really strict for a month but I was still gaining. I think my metabolism at 25 was just totally different from my peri-menopausal metabolism at 45! 5:2 seems to be suiting my newly sluggish metabolism better.

Good luck everyone fasting today

Waspie Several peri / post-meno women on these threads have said 5:2 is the one thing that worked for them
You may lose more slowly than young women, but it's a WOL not a race
_
PERI / MENOPAUSE, Weight Gain & Control_ (some geeky stuff !)

Hormonal changes leading to weight gain:

• High insulin levels tend to fat storage
• Prolonged high cortisol tends to hinder fat-burning.

What naturally counteracts these before peri:

• Estrogen is a hormone that counteracts insulin & cortisol.
• Progesterone counterracts cortisol only.

Younger women have high levels of these 2 hormones; hence, weight control is easier.

At peri / menopause, when both hormones drop drastically, a woman typically:

1. has slower metabolism due to much lower estrogen. Real TDEE (average daily calories burned) drops and often averages 200-400 below calculated value.

5:2 is a great help is cutting calories while keeping "normal" food the other 5 days
Important: cut out all snacks between meals, on FDs and NFDs.
This change in itself can help insulin metabolism

2. is more sensitive to simple carbs, even fruit, due to increased insulin resistance. Fat is likely to be added around abdomen, where it increases health risks. So:

• Reduce fruit to max 2 portions daily
• Drastically reduce junk food, even home-cooked baking, especially cake, biscuits, choc, crisps, deep-fried food, takeaways

3. is more likely to have thyroid imbalance

• low estrogen can slow thyroid function.

Anyone with a previously sluggish thyroid (women are more prone to this) will likely find pre-menopause worsens this considerably.
Consult your GP if you suspect thyroid issues, e.g. weight gain, skin problems, throat problems

4. Loss of muscle mass, which lowers metabolism and raises some health risks. Occurs from age 25 for all non-exercisers; it accelerates around menopause.

To retain / build muscle requires weight-bearing exercise, e.g. squats, pressups, lifting.
Prolonged cardio is NOT sufficient and may even increase muscle loss.

5. is more vulnerable to stress. Anyone chronically stressed will have raised cortisol levels, tending to increased fat storage.

As well as final career surge, caring for elderly parents, teenagers, uni students.
So make time for yourself too, to relax,
e.g. meditation, music, book, a foot bath with epsom salts.

I am trying to re-frame NFDs into FDs+, that is structured like FDs but with more cals & greater variety
I like this e.g. not thinking of the NFD as no fasting at all but you are doing short fasts between larger meals with no snacks. I looked into a diet called the No S diet where you always eat 3 meals a day no snacks or sweets or seconds except on days beginning with S. I still like the concept of this simple diet although I found weight loss very slow. Anyway he had a theory he called "extreme moderation" because it was a very moderate diet but he says that makes it even more important to stick to the rules or you would soon slide back to your normal eating pattern. So you have to have the same mindset as you would on a very strict diet and try extremely hard to never, ever break the rules.

On 5:2, it's even simpler:

no snacks EVER
Not at WEs, not on holiday

if you want a "treat" like cake, choc, alcohol, latte etc then have it only as part of an NFD meal

When I was breaking the habit that, um, my username may suggest, I "2:5ed" it
i.e. I had one sensible portion of choc on 2 NFDs

I soon broke the dependence and now I eat choc only occasionally and in small quantities, often no interest for months at a time
I occasionally (1-2 x month) enjoy a dessert at a very good restaurant

The choc would of course be my dessert, on the occasions I want choc
Never between meals

It helps to plan NFDs in advance, just the menus for each mealtime, no calorie counting needed
Also helps to have regular mealtimes
That gives structure to the day, so you don't have to think what to eat

For it to work well, you need to avoid any ad hoc changes, any impulsive nibbles or swaps
Eat to the plan, nothing else

If you go off plan, don't say "sod it" and just eat everything for the rest of the day
Stop eating as soon as you realise, then drink water, have a walk or dance or do any job that occupies your mind

That's very interesting (if somewhat depressing) BigChocFrenzy thanks.

I'm low today - just 260 calories. I can't eat more though as it would count as a snack!

Just checking in with my mini of 845 today which seemed to go pretty well.