5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

The NFD plan sounds sensible, Stripey and do enjoy a delic pie sometimes

5:2 allows sensible amounts of treats on NFDs, as a relaxing contrast to the strict FDs
and makes this WOL sustainable longterm - which is the key for lifelong weight management

For best results and to form healthier longterm habits,
try to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

• NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
• NEVER snack / graze between meals - eat meals, nothing between
• AIm for a daily eating window of no more than 12 hours, called 12:12 e.g. first meal at 8am and finish last meal by 8pm
• On NFDs, you can have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own
• Lots of water & veg each day
• Cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)

Update: so first FD a success. I planned it all & counted out calories beforehand. It was black tea & coffee til 3 pm. Then 1 bowl of homemade broccoli soup (300g broccoli + stock) 8 pm , main meal of salmon, veg (all weighed) cooked in a broth seasoned with red Thai curry paste. Pre- bed not very sweet choc mousse. Slept ver well. Woke, did 3.5 mi walk, breakfast at 10:30, when I was quite hungry. Felt generally good.
Learning - will substitute more soup for mousse before bedtime, as worried that sweetness in mousse could effect insulin. Also mousse not very nice.
Next FD is Thurs. Booze only on weekends.
Reading Delay Don’t Deny, interesting how she played around with fasting to see what worked for her. I like the flexibility of 5:2. Not so sure about OMAD, but it could be an option. 5:2 should reduce my fear/increase my confidence re fasting. Time will tell.

To all faster looking for the right foods for fast days - I highly recommend broccoli (or similar high fibre veg) soup. Incredibly easy to make. I use mainly the big woody stems & past their best florets. Boil it up in stock (check calories). Then use a hand liquidiser to purée. It is incredibly filling (fibre). It kept me from being hungry for 5 hours yesterday (3-8pm) V low calorie

Urgh my DH made me lunch (which I am normally very grateful for!) but as I was too polite to reject the food it's meant I will finish my FD day at c. 700 cals. This is with me cutting my dinner down quite a bit as dinner would have been my only meal.

Annoying. I'll have to remind him on Thursday for the next one.

I'm having soup as well today moan and then salmon tonight with veg and lemon.

I think by the end of the day I'll be at 610 calories assuming I keep on plan.

brio how are you splitting your calories? I've found two meals of lowish calories better than one of higher calories but we all work differently.

Soup is great for FD isn't it moan? Always find it super satisfying. Sounds like you had a successful day.i definitely find myself rethinking the calories about what are worth it and what isnt!

Moonlight, wishing I had salmon in my freezer!

NFD here for me but managed to skip breakfast and have a big cheddar and spinach omlette for lunch with tomato salad, followed by berries, a pear and a little Greek yoghurt. Dinner was curry - a mix of lamb and lentil and aloo Gobi. Delicious! Followed up with an ora ge an now kitchen closed. Trying to have big meals, with fruit after, and lots of protein on NFD to avoid the snacking and to make me feel really satisfied.

Tomorrow is FD for me and going to skip breakfast, have pesto roast aubergine for lunch with spinach followed by a pear. Dinner will be Quorn mince with green veg. Snack available of 10 olives. I find if I plan my FD generously (this is 720 Cal's) then I don't have to eat it all,but it is there is I need it, and I dont give up and fall into the bread bin!

Hope fasters did well today and that everyone got to area bit of the sunshine!

Bestbees that sounds delicious! Tomorrow rather good too. Pesto roasted aubergine sounds really tasty.

Moonlight I have discovered today that I prefer to wait till dinner to eat on a FD. I think it's because my days are busy anyway (currently working FT from home and have two kids) so it's easy to distract myself, and then my stomach is full for the evening after dinner.

Kitchen now closed for me, I've ended on around 700 cals which is more than my 500 cal menu I set for myself! Next FD is Thursday.

Got through my FD ok. A bit hungry and drank a lot of coffee. It's funny how I can stick to this when often I struggle not to have a third slice of cake.

I'm going to try planning my meals for the NFD more
Breakfast Quinoa porridge
Lunch tomato soup with cheese
Dinner chicken curry and rice

I need to.work out the calories, my usual curry recipe contains a lot of cream so might try to reduce that a bit. The quinoa porridge is actually an experiment because I ran out of oats, but if I like it might keep having it that way.

Hi All,

I am back after a hiatus for several months, because....guess what? Bad snacking and sugar habits crept in and I have put on several kilos. Being in lockdown is also a big reason....so easy to snack, so much boredom/emotional eating. And so much baking!!!

So trying to get back on track. Fasting day today (I'm in NZ).

Well done on an excellent 1st FD, Moan

Well done too, Brio, moonlight, Stripey and any other Tuesday fasters

Stripey It is useful to roughly plan your menu for the next NFD, to give structure while you are forming better habits
It then becomes something you automatically do in your head in 5 seconds the day before

Welcome back, wonderful
You'll soon be back in the fasting swing
This time you know that the No Snacking habit must be permanent, including at WEs and on holiday;
Otherwise your old habits sneak back in, refuse to leave .... and ruin your hard work

Sounds a delic & healthy NFD, BestBees
and that's a No Snacking NSV

moonlight WIth only 500 calories, it doesn't matter whether you save them for a more substantial evening meal, or have 2 meals On 800 calories, I suggest 2 or 3 meals, (as Mosely does in his Fast800) to avoid any meal being large
*
Moan* I would not recommend OMAD, certainly not when your immune system needs to be strong:

Studies after some weeks have found that the very large OMAD meal, usually in the evening, increases some markers for CVD, high BP, increased inflammation.

Also, it doesn't lose as effectively for women as for big male weighlifters with 3000-4000 TDEE:
The rate of loss often tails off for women after a couple of weeks, because the daily calorie deficit when eating to feel satisfied - not stuffed - is not that large, once they have got used to 1 big meal

That is the problem longterm:
they get used to huge meals, so when they try to go on maintenance / more normal eating, they struggle greatly with sensible portions

Hi all

Wanted to ask does anyone on this thread suffer from fibromyalgia? I'm finding that I'm falling off the wagon when I'm in midst of a flare up (usually leading up to my cycle) and then my rate of loss is slowed down even further (I lose two thirds of a lb a week) so I think I need to be flexible and not fast during flare ups but then do an extra fast here and there when I'm feeling good.

It's really disheartening to consider missing fasts, missing them and then feel like I've fallen off the wagon and getting into this self pity mindset.

Anyone joining me on a fast day today? Lentil soup for lunch and fish and green veg for dinner 🙌

Hi everyone i think i will have to join you all in fasting, i did it once years ago and lost around a stone.

I started low carbing just before lockdown and lost some weight and now ive put it all back on and more. Since lockdown i have put on 8lbs

Are you all still loosing during lockdown? Please tell me something encouraging as im dreading fasting or dieting in anyway and i am eating out of bordom and snacking constantly! Chocolate and sweet things are the enemy

Week has gone quite well so far, 100 cals in hand on Monday (though that did include exercise calories), 1000 cal mini yesterday with 900 cals left over (again including exercise ones). Today was meant to be a mini again but it’s DD1’s birthday today and there will be cake, and burgers for dinner, and there were pancakes for breakfast so I’ll see how it goes!

Good luck to any Wednesday fasters x

Fast day here today.
May have eaten cheese and crackers last night, it's the long evenings after kids are in bed thats so hard for me!

Welcome back, upside

Some people are just aiming to sts during lockdown, say via 1 FD every week;
others are doing 2 weekly FDs and managing to lose

The important first step for most folk - and make this a lifetime new habit:

No Snacking
Eat meals, nothing between, even "healthy" snacks

If you get desperate to munch while zapping this habit, then prep raw veg - celery, carrot, cucumber - in the fridge, but no dips or sauce, also not fruit or nuts (calories, sugar)

A few minutes Tabata each day and a good walk / jog outside can help ward off hunger

Good luck on your FD, upside, Harriet, Bestbees and any other fasters today
Sounds a nice healthy menu, harriet

Enjoy your DS celebration today, sydney
Definitely not a day to attempt fasting

inthethick I recommend you just aim for good habits - e.g. no snacking - to sts during flareups,
then the other weeks aim for loss

Even a v slow loss is a win during this tough lockdown and miles better than being disappointed by regain

Do any of you do 16:8 without having two fast days and still loose weight? If so how do you workout how many calories to eat per day to loose weight?

I checked my tdee with my current weight it is 1765 cals per day.

Im wondering if i could do 16:8 instead but not sure how to go about it.

I was thinking about doing a fast day today but my belly is rumbling and im hungry already 🙈🙈

I seriously need to stop eating so much, if i put on anymore weight i will be so miserable

Well I tried the quinoa porridge and it was not a hit . The quinoa is definitely best savoury! So it's going to be the traditional porridge from now on.

bigchoc thanks I know I won't keep up with counting calories all the time, I have tried that before so it's not the sustainable WOE I am looking for. Will just do it until I get the idea of what meals and portion sizes fit my TDEE. Anyway it's not going to be quinoa porridge.

upside I've only just started but I found the fast day wasn't as bad as I dreaded. I did get hungry but drinking hot drinks helped and it's true it goes off after a bit. I watched Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows with dd and that was helpful too, something comforting to take your mind off things.

Hey everyone!

So my first FD was almost a success! I’m not usually a breakfast person anyway so just had a cup of tea in the morning and got on with things. Made a lovely quinoa and cannelloni bean salad for lunch - it’s an Ottolenghi recipe and was super filling at only 212 calories. Since I was aiming for 800 for the day I was really on track. But then I had an argument with my husband, ended up in a grump so didn’t prep dinner, then had to do both dinner/bath/bedtimes as he had a call with his US office 6-7:30. By the time the kids were asleep (always takes longer when he’s not around “but isn’t daddy coming to say goodnight?”) I just couldn’t be bothered and made a COOK Chicken Satay ready meal I found in the freezer that we got for the newborn days 😂 it was yummy but NOT a FD meal. Ended up finishing the day on 1012 calories which considering the breastfeeding is still ok, especially for a first time.

What I really liked was how I paid attention to how much water I was drinking yesterday. I’ve decided to drink at least 2 litres a day but work up to 3 over the next few weeks. I already feel better just after yesterday!

I think that's pretty good for a first try @ToesAndFingersCrossed!

Happy birthday to your DD @SydneyCarton

Am already counting the hours til tea..!

That's fine for your 1st FD with BF, Toes

Is that the sound of a rumbling tum coming over my iPad, Harriet

That's fine Sydney Most people lose on 5:2 without counting calories

I suggest a menu plan for NFDs, to give structure and nutrition, but usually no need to count calories on it as well, unless you prefer to

The "healthy 5:2 guidelines" upthread also help keep within TDEE without counting

Upside 16:8 on its own won't really cause weight loss, unless it causes you to eat fewer calories, especially junk ones

The classic 16:8 is to cut out either breakfast or supper - but without eating back those calories during the 8-hour eating window

I suggest trying 1300-1400 daily, with 2-3 meals, no snacks between and see how it goes for 2-3 weeks
Women often find it easier to do 14:10, i.e. a 10-hour eating window

Another alternative to 5:2 is to have 3 MiniFDs,
e.g. Mon+Wed+Fri
with 800-1000 calories, but no alcohol or junk those 3 days

Upsidedown I am dealing with lockdown by having lots of structure, so my days are focussed around exercise, walk in morning, Utube exercise class mid-day & on my exercise bike for the briefing. I am now adding the 5:2 into that framework. Tomorrow’s fast day, is walk, work on some spreadsheets I need to get to the accountant, exercise, ( drinking, water, black coffee & tea) then when quite hungry I will have my soup. Lots of broccoli ends in veg drawer waiting to be cooked. A soup of white fish & veg, for dinner, which I would love to flavour with lemongrass but no joy in supermarkets ATM :( I may have some miso paste in a cupboard somewhere, that’ll have to do. More veg soup before bed. All being well, that should not exceed 500 cal.
Big choc I agree re OMAD, I just thought the story in Delay Don’t Deny was useful, re trying different types of fasting. 5:2 structure appeals to me, but I can see it is so important to get NFDs right.
I felt somewhat slimmer around the middle today, but I am not going to evaluate it until I have done 2 weeks.

Kitchen closing here on 571. Slightly higher than I'd planned but I'll take that... @Upsidedownrightnow and @Bestbees how did you get on?

All good here thanks! FD easier that NFD for me! Haven't needed my olives snack so finishing around 600. Would really recommend my lunch- half an aubergine scored and topped with 50g pesto. Roasted for 30-40mins. Very decadent tasting, served wih some spinach. Would be good I guess with other things like curry paste. 200cals all in!