5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

@MazDazzle I know what you mean. My youngest is a poor sleeper. Sometimes she ends up in my bed, which gives me broken sleep. I find that when I haven't slept well, I reach for the sugar to keep me going! I hope your little one is sleeping better now, and you've caught up on your sleep.

Thanks Beautiful. It tough when you don’t get a decent night’s sleep, isn’t it? It totally throws you. My youngest is 4, so I’m hoping that the end of broken sleep is in sight!

Well done, beaut, Maz

kitty The snacking advice is from Mosely and other fasting experts, but limiting junk & alcohol is standard advice for any responsible weight loss method
i.e. any method that isn't just a temporary fix to start the yo-yo again and that doesn't ignore longterm health.

Calories are dominant, but your body doesn't treat all calories the same
Too many junky calories can slow, or for some people even block, weight loss

The tolerance is individual and depends on e.g. whether you are insulin resistant (typical of "hard losers"), how efficiently your liver works / whether it is damaged

Alcohol:
Your liver prioritises processing the toxic byproducts of alcohol, so fat-burning is stopped until this is completed
Hence keeping to NHS alcohol limits on NFDs and none on FDs

Sugary / carby junk:
Spikes insulin, which stops fat-burning and soon increases hunger, leading to the urge for more junk and so on in a spiral

Sugar & alcohol are stored preferentially around the middle if they aren't burned off before.

"snacks with meals"
That's sugary / junky treats / alcohol only with meals, because a snack is by definition between meals

Snacks / grazing between meals keeps insulin raised and reduces the amount of fat-burning in a day.

"diet fizz" - Mosely advises against this in his books.
Research has shown that diet drinks can spike insulin, even though they don't contain calories
and that most sweeteners, except stevia, can change gut flora longterm, to increase bodyfat gain
Diet coke / pepsi is particularly unhealthy because its ingredients taken longterm may cause damage to kidneys and bones

People can lose if they reduce calories sufficiently, for a long enough time,
but an excessively junky / snacking lifestyle tends to lead to yo-yo dieting, because the loss is not sustainable

Why we shouldn't snack

Mosely and most other fasting experts recommend no snacking between meals

Snacks were popularised by BIg Food around 1980, to increase profits.
They also increased waistlines.

Even "healthy" snacks - like fruit or dipping veg - keep insulin raised and hence reduce the time in which your body can burn fat.
And the most common / tempting snacks are not even healthy

Also, human studies show that most people consume more calories in a 24-hour period if they snack,
because the reduction in meal size (if any) is usually less than the calories contained in all the snacks.

You can lose despite snacking, but it will be slower than without.
So, any treats - lattes, alcohol, crisps, biscuits, cake etc - and even fruit, nuts, yoghurt etc should only be as part of a meal.

Broad definition of a snack is that it is less than 3 hrs away from a meal.

Snacks are ok for those who need to gain weight, e.g. underweight DC - but this applies to only a few in the West

Snacking has caused a fundamental change for most of the population, compared to many millennia of evolution

• almost no traditional eating culture includes snacking.

Each 24 hour day with snacks is now insulin-dominant (graph 2) instead of fasting-dominant (graph 1), see graphs from Dr Jason Fung:

Morning everyone (from the other side of the world!).

Today marks a month since I started 5:2 and I've lost 2.5kg/5.5lb. I'm pretty pleased with that. At this rate I should hit my goal weight in the first quarter of 2021 - but it's early days, I just need to stick with it!

Giving up snacking has been a real revelation for me. So that I don't feel like I'm missing out, I've instead shifted my snacks to straight after a meal, which means I a) don't have that constant insulin and b) I eat less because I'm not as hungry post-meal.

I've hit a rhythm on FDs, with a lunch that consists mainly of veges, and then a vege-heavy dinner.

@MazDazzle hope you (and your DC) have slept better. When I first started fasting when my DC were very small I found it so difficult due to that lack of sleep. Hang in there!!

@Beautiful3 I started off doing 4:3 but (as BigChoc said might happen) I lost the same amount of weight as with 5:2 because I overcompensated on NFDs. I have terrible bingeing tendencies though so my experience won't be the same for everyone of course!

Good luck Thursday fasters!!

Congratulations on your SV, spatchcock
and well done on your No Snacking NSV

Good morning gang! Who's with me today?

I'm back on my fitness pal on NFD - not to hit a particular goal but to just remain accountable to myself. Is definitely helping me make better choices and limit the demon drink.

Also had a NSV this morning when I pulled on a pair of jeans and thought omg, these are a bit snug, good thing today's a fast day... only to check and see they're a 28 inch waist rather than my usual 29! Haven't been in them for MONTHS!

So am pretty motivated for the day ahead

Good luck any fellow fasters x

Well done @spatchcock that's brilliant!

Well done MazDazzle and Beautiful3 o your FDs. I finished yesterday on 532 so not too bad. Hope you had a better night with you DC too, Maz.

Good luck to all the fasters today. harriethoyle and spatchcock, congratulations! Love hearing all these victories, it reminds me why I'm doing this.

Thanks for the well dones!

I’ve shut up shop for the day, after 520cals and about 47262 litres of herbal tea.

@harriethoyle that is awesome - I dream of the day I can fit into jeans. Any jeans!

👊 to all you Thursday fasters!

@MazDazzle - I have only just got my instant pot and I love it, what's your favourite low carb meals to make in it? I'm looking for inspiration

Well I'm Fasting Today But feel quite weak and tired. I may have overdone it with the exercise and low carbing this week, but I have done really well and not had any rice, pasta, bread or potatoes all week

I'm Definitely Going To Take It As A Rest Day Today from exercise.

I'm Also Planning not to weigh myself this week after my 2 fd and to wait until next Friday which will then mean I have been doing low carb for 2 weeks and had 2 fd each week im hoping to see a decent drop on the scales!

@spatchcock well done with your weightloss and very well done on kicking the snacking! That's Something I also struggle with but when I'm doing low carb it's much easier not to snack

Good luck all fasters.

I’m fasting too. Third fd this week for me. I’ve a lot going on at the moment and I have no appetite so taking advantage! Hope this doesn’t come back to haunt me.

Well done @spatchcock. Thanks for the advice, I will make sure to log all my calories on nfd on mfp. If it looks like I start to over eat, I'll switch back to 5:2. I just wanted to burn as much fat as possible as I have 3 stone 7 to get rid of. Then switch back to 5:2 for maintenance. Mind you I think I weigh less now. I have real anxiety about weighing myself! In case the past few weeks were for nothing e.g. couple of lbs! Then I'd self sabotage! Think I'll weigh myself in August! 😅 Well done @harriethoyle for getting into a smaller pair of jeans! That's great @emcla, my third fast day is tomorrow! Good luck to all those fasting today.

Well done on your FD, spatchcock, syncope

and well done on your jeans NSV, Harriet
*
Good luck today, Harriet, emcla, upside*

I hope all is well with you emcla
but taking advantage of low appetite for 4:3 is a good tactic, so at least one thing goes well and may help you feel more in control.

Upside I recommend you make today a training restday
Recovery is important for building muscle & fitness.

You probably need to build up to exercise more gradually, so give yourself 2 restdays per week in which you do no training at all, just a relaxing walk outside

Beaut If you get emotional about scales, maybe easily discouraged, it's absolutely fine to just go by clothes fit and only weigh yourself when you feel ready

Thank you BigChocFrenzy for taking the time to reply and explain to me. After reading that helpful link from NathanNathan, and with your explanation, I've realised it's not just about CICO but about insulin? That you need you sugar stores low so the body burns fat instead? I like the 12 hour fasting idea too (16;8 was to much for me atm. I've always had/needed breakfast, and usually, have to eat something sweet to help me drop off in the early hours due to my insomnia. It's about the only thing that works!)
I'm teetotal so don't need to worry about alcohol.
Good luck to all fasting today.
Congrats on your weightloss spatchcock ! It's nice to see results isn't it?
Congrats to you too harriethoyle on your NSV!

Not posted this past week (where has time gone) but I've managed my second fast of the week today. Hopefully I'm back on 'it' for good ! BCF advice about taking almonds
With medication really helped as it means I'm not in pain and trying to fast 😅

Thanks again BCF.

Lots of great SV and NSV which are great motivators too!

Well done on your FD, inthethick
How are the rest of the Thursday fasters doing ?

Just been reading up on 16:8. Might try this tomorrow along with the 5:2. Has anybody else tried doing the two? I've been reading all the threads in this section on 16:8 and results seem to be split between not doing anything, and a slow weight loss.

@73kittycat73 yes that's my understanding is that insulin levels are the key!

I'm reading the Obesity Code which is a more in depth explanation written by Jason Fung, but there are various You Tube videos that cover it.

I did 7 weeks of Michael Moseley's Blood Sugar diet, and have now done two weeks of 5:2. I've done 16:8 consistently throughout. Total loss after 9 weeks is 22 lbs.

Total loss after 9 weeks is 22 lbs.

Congrats on you SV!
Do you find your motivation comes and goes? One minute I'll be thinking, "It's broccoli and plan water for me tomorrow," then the next thinking, "I really want that rice Krispy Square in the kitchen cupboard!"
Still, will try 16:8 tomorrow, see how things go.

Wow Nathan. Amazing ! Well done.

"Total loss after 9 weeks is 22 lbs." That's brilliant, @NathanNathan. So motivating to hear about your success.

@73kittycat73 I combine the two, but that's only because I've never been a big breakfast eater. If I do eat breakfast, I find I'm starving again by mid morning, so it's more that this way of eating works for me rather than me making a concerted effort.

On the days after FDs, I do eat lunch a bit earlier, at 11 or thereabouts, just because I feel like I need it.

I have never found 16:8 to work for me on its own, but now I think it could if I culled my snack habit!

Good luck all you Friday fasters :)

Thanks bcf. I am fine. Just caught up with a property purchase Which is looking good so far I don’t want to jinx myself here,and a close family member not doing so well health wise which I am very worried about. Hence no appetite. I’m finding it hard to sleep but I’m not tired. I always have been a big sleeper. It’s really shown me that it’s all about calories. I’m also walking twice a day most days since the lock down. I’m an active person anyway, never one for watching much tv. Etc. My dh has also lost weight. His clothes actually look so big on him. Might weigh in this morning....

Sorry to hear you're having trouble sleeping emcla I'm a big sleeper too and find that the worst!

Thank you to everyone for the positivity. In terms of how do I keep the motivation, I've definitely had slip ups as you'll see from my previous posts here which BigChoc always guides me through. But certainly in terms of keeping 16:8 going, I've found it relatively easy to get into the rhythm of no breakfast, making myself wait until 1/2pm for lunch, and then that means two larger meals instead of 3, which I find better.

Fast days are still hard but the "I can have it tomorrow" mantra does help! I also think the weeks of BSD I did before this where I did 800 calories per day helped reset my appetite, which was out of control before, so now it's better on both NFD and FDs.