5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Well done, Moon

Waspie Why do you think it is a snack ?
Have the rest of your calories (unless it's a Mars bar or a glass of wine !)

On FDs, you can have your calories in 1, 2 or even 3 meals if you prefer and the timing doesn't really matter with the calories being so low

Most people tend to have 2 meals, but whatever works for you

Checking back in-will catch up on thread later. Quick glance looks like some new names and some good progress all round.
I’m struggling to get any FD in but am doing low cal soup for lunch 3 days a week and normal dinner-avoiding the numerous cakes and sweet things on offer at work thinking about the poo crumbs bigchoc

Hi everyone. Lots of interesting chat that I’ve been catching up on. I’m on a fd today. Good luck to anyone fasting with me! Will check in later.

Hi everyone.
Good luck to any fasters today.
I think I might make tomorrow and extra FD as I feel that might help a bit with the kick start. Does anyone do 3fd? Is it a bad idea?

Hi bees I think doing 3 days is quite popular, they call it 3:4.

Or should that be 4:3?

Good luck today, emcla and any other Thursday fasters

Sounds like you might be doing the system of 3 weekly miniFDs, what
in a very relaxed way
If you can cut out all alcohol and junk on those 3 days, then it can be a good relaxed system to gently lose

Well done on remembering another 5:2 mantra at work,

"Communal food has poo crumbs & snot smears !" 💩 😂

bestbees, stripey 3 full FDs are called 4:3
It can be a good way to speed up weight loss especially for a short period
and is part of a "5:2 Boot Camp" option

However, it doesn't work well unless the NFDs are under reasonable control,
because otherwise people tend to automatically eat back the extra FD defict and hence not lose any more than on 5:2
That's been the experience of several on these threads who tried it, but others have had stable NFDs and did very well on 4:3

Over the longterm, it is what happens on NFDs and the habits permanently changed then - or not -
that determine progress and longterm weight management

So, the 5:2 healthy NFD habits listed upthread are an important enabler

Set a personal best of 868 active calories burned yesterday and 2500 calories in total. Early morning run and a joe wicks workout; exhausting but felt very smug all day. Slightly over TDEE but not too bothered. I have managed to rein in the bad habit I got into over Easter of a biscuit or three with my morning tea so snacking is at a minimum. Not that I have much time to snack in between childcare, homeschool (ha!), home working, cooking, laundry etc

Well done on your activity pb, Sydney
and on the progress to No Snacking

I guess I assumed it would count as a snack because I'd already eaten my even meal BCF. I fell foul of lack of preparation yesterday and when I came to make my evening salad the hard boiled egg I had planned to have with it hadn't been cooked. So I went without. Good to know that if I mess up like that again I can eat the calories later though, thanks. No mars bars I promise!

I recalculated my TDEE and BMI earlier. TDEE is now 1800 (based on sedentary) and my BMI is 26.2. I need to lose 4 more Kg to get below 25 and into "normal" weight range. In some ways it's nice to be tall but it does mean one hides weight creep more easily

Lovely weather here in Berkshire. Can't wait for the weekend; it's been a manic week at work. Hope all Friday fasters are having a good day

Anyway, well done on your FD, Waspie
Next FD will seem like loads of food

Enjoy your WE
It's been lovely & sunny for over a week here, 23C today and the Rhine looks gorgeous
So off now for a long walk

Completed my second FD yesterday, I felt hungrier than first one. Today on NFD, quite hungry at lunch. It may be that will be my main meal on NFDs, have to see how this stabilises. Planning pork tenderloin & mashed cauliflower for dinner, trying to stay low (ish) carb

If your doing 16:8 do you know if your allowed to eat back some of your exercises calories?

My fitbit said today i used over 700 cals in exercise all ive done is go for an hours walk and normal at home moving around!

I definitely think that's too many calories but im thinking if maybe i ate back half of them or less?

Well done, Moan

Upside If you're doing 16:8 and being quite active, then I recommend you keep to your sedentary TDEE and don't eat back any exercise calories

16:8 needs a weekly calorie deficit to lose and that fitbit sounds unusually high just for a walk on top of a normal day
Gadgets usually overestimate the extra calories e.g. by not subracting the calories you burn anyway just being awake

See how you go and review after 2-3 weeks
you can tweak calories up or down, change food & drink choices

@BigChocFrenzy

Thank you for the advice, i will be walking for an hour atleast 5 days per week and i also do 3 40 minute workouts which involve splits training, core and strength (with resistance bands) so i think that should be ok for me to stick to sedentary tdee. That gives me just over 1500 cals per day.

Yes the fitbit nust massively over estimate its very annoying

Upsidedown Fitbit, MyFitnessPal all seem to urge you on to eat your exercise calories. I think you should never do this, simply look at these as a number & focus on your TDEE or FD cals. There is a myth around that exercise leads to weight loss, but no. The most weight I ever lost I exercised not at all ( but ate 600-800 cal/day for 5 months, that’s another story!)

Exercise is important for health - so try to do some cardio and strength training each week - Exercise also helps maintain weight after loss

However, weight loss is 90% intake and 10% exercise except for a minority of intense exercisers
especially because most people and gadgets over-estimate the calories burned

Long sessions of steady state cardio, e.g. medium paced runs & swims, can also increase appetite

On daily 16:8, without FDs,
exercising can provide the calorie deficit with sedentary TDEE
If you don't lose after a couple of weeks, then adjust intake

Those on 5:2 can usually lose without counting calories,

but IFF you prefer a rough target, then use TDEE and you should have the extra exercise calories - on NFDs only, not FDs - because the FDs provide the calorie deficit for the week

Again, don't believe the gadgets
Instead, Mosely says to set the activity level in TDEE to one lower than you think and calculate your rough NFD target via
Mosely's TDEE Calc

Hi, I've resumed 18:6 over the past two months, and lost 10kg. Prior to that I was avoiding snacking and eating healthy foods, and had lost 12kg in 6 months after having a baby, so 22kg all together. I can't imagine carrying all that weight around now, no wonder I was so tired.

I started intermittent fasting again as I've found it successful in the past at losing weight quickly, and coronavirus made me want to speed up my weight loss and get back to a healthy weight. 16:8 I previously found ineffective at losing weight for me, so I do 18:6. I've found it surprisingly easy this time.

My original target is BMI 25, which I will reach in under 3kg. My BMI was 34 at the start so 25 felt very very far away!

I'm wondering what BMI to aim for after reaching 25- I don't want to accidentally tip over again if I have a period of overeating. Maybe 23? I was BMI 20 once and I looked gaunt, so above that.

Also I have some loose skin around my tummy now, am wondering what type of exercises to do. If I'd lost weight slower would the skin have contracted as I lost weight?

Winter time I think will be harder for me to stick to 16:8 - previously I lost weight in the summer but regained in winter as I got a string of coughs/ colds and ate more as I was feeling unwell and tired. I will need a strategy to not overeat.

Hi everyone. Been a busy day Lots of new messages. Fd completed and I’m off to bed. Will catch up on this thread over the weekend. Good luck to anyone fasting tomorrow.

Hi Merida. Sounds like you have done amazingly so far. I don't know how to calculate a good BMI for you! 23 sounds sensible though .

Hi emcla, glad your FD went well.

A weekend FD for me here, made possible by Corona! I am working from home today so I am hoping that will be distracting. Plan is mushroom and spinach omlette for lunch and tuna steak and veg for tea.

Anyone else fasting today?

Well done on your FD, Emcla
Enjoy a relaxing WE

Good luck today, Bestbees and any other Saturday fasters

Congratulations on your SV, Wisp

Cutting out snacks can make a big difference to insulin levels over each day, so that is an important new habit NSV

No snacking between meals is also the most important habit to carry over into longterm weight management,
e.g. over winter

What helps you feel satisfied over winter:

very low cal and hence acceptable between meals:
hot Bovril, hot herbal teas without milk

Meals:
hot soups and stews, with protein, but packed with lots of veg, lentils, beans to add fibre and slow-burn carbs

For your starches,
use the resistance starch trick for lower insulin impact:
cooks pasta / rice / potato and let them cool, then heat them up again

Move to 100% wholegrain / wholemeal / rye bread instead of white

Decide your goal

1. First get within BMI 24, unless you are v v muscular for a woman, or over 6'

• in which case still aim for BMI 25

(Men can have low bodyfat - which should be confirmed by measuring - at even BMI 30, but women almost never can - biology)

2. Check your waist Measure at the narrowest point, usually about 2" above the navel (men measure at the navel itself)

Aim for waist < 31.5" / 80 cm and < half your height
To look "ripped," most women need waist / height to be about 0.45 or less,
but this is not necessary for health

3. Determine your Body Frame Size:
   Calc Wt Frame

4. visualise your ideal weight by experimenting with the weight sliders on this 3D BMI Visualiser
   Select ripped / normal
   and
   Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Must add this to 3) !

Find weight range for your body frame and height :
WeightForBodyFrame

Great thanks for all the advice.

Soups in the winter will be helpful - if I add more liquid to make them physically larger I think that will fill me up for longer. And I'll look at resistant starches.

Any thoughts on protein shakes? As in protein powder and water only. My husband recommended them as I don't eat meat, and he said it would help fill me up so I don't overeat. I broke my fast with one for a week and I do think it moderated my subsequent meal, although I have eaten less this week without them.

I'm prone to storing fat around my tummy annoyingly. Even when I was a healthy weight and very fit in my 20s I was still prone to tummy fat and had a borderline waist measurement. I will look into the links you added, thanks.

I'll keep my first goal as BMI 25 though as I've got a date in mind I want to achieve it by, and I won't be able to reach BMI 24 by then. It's been 9 months in the making and it felt so impossible when I started out. I also didn't feel fat then, I couldn't imagine where all the weight was going to come off. Now I'm almost there (and can see that I still have wobbly bits) I can't believe how fat I must have been, and so unaware of it. How strange that our perceptions can be so misleading. I wish I had taken more photos of myself so I could compare.

Once I've got to BMI 25 (in the next 3 weeks) I'll start a new goal using the links you provided. Waist measurement will be a very important goal for me I think.

Hi All,

Jumping in here in the hope I finally finally reach my weight loss goals! I've been lurking for months and lost 1.5 stone before Christmas on 5:2. Ashamed to say almost a stone back on since. Overall I need to lose almost two stone if I'm to return to my pre-baby weight - although my "baby" is two and a half

I'm aiming to be 9 stone by the end of the summer. I really need to do it this time as my confidence is shattered at this point. Been slowly cutting down on the copious amounts of sugary junk, baked goods and caffeine I've been consuming during lockdown and first FD will be Monday.

Hoping this thread will keep me motivated and accountable