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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 90: In these tough times, our friendly support group supports you in your weight & healthy goals

972 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 15/04/2020 22:43

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had past diagnosed Eating Disorders or serious MH problems you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Ideal Weight & Body Frame Size: Calc Wt Frame
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Units Cals

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know , Foodie Under 200 Cals
Vegetarian ,

FD Ready Meals, Fast Food

Any Day:
Meal Planner

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
BrioLover · 16/04/2020 22:07

Well done on your FDs @welshmumofboys and @emcla

Thanks so much @BigChocFrenzy - that's really helpful. I never thought about it in terms of insulin production etc. before.

Finished today at just under 500 cals. Hungry though so bedtime here.

BigChocFrenzy · 16/04/2020 23:29

Well done, WelshMum, Brio

OP posts:
HandsDownRoundTheTown · 17/04/2020 07:03

Well done Welsh, Emcla and Brio

To new starters - the best tip I’ve had (from this fab board!) was to plan everything for FDs to the nth degree. I now make up lunch and dinner boxes and even flasks for my coffee / her BAML tea.

It means you don’t even have to put any effort into thinking about food on a FD and I find that makes all the difference.

Come join us for two weeks -I think you’ll see benefit just in that time! Smile

emcla · 17/04/2020 10:33

Good tips handsdown. Lots of water too to prevent constipation and headaches and to fill up.

On a positive note. I’m down 1 pound today. Wish it was more but going in the right direction.

Good luck to all Friday fasters.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2020 10:48

Congratulations on your SV, emcla
That's an accomplishment, losing under these circumstances

I suggest for sustainability you stick to the 2 FDs, without trying to add miniFDs
That helps avoid hunger on NFDs and makes it easier on you.

Yep, as handsdown says, I always advise people to prep & plan their FD the day before - and of course stick to the plan, no ad hoc eating

Prep includes weighing out any allowance for milk or sugar into separate pots for the FD - when they're gone, they're gone

Keep drinking water:
You obtain less water from the reduced food on FDs
So start each day with a glass and keep drinking
Fizzy water is OK, but even diet flavoured fizz can spike insulin, cause headaches and over time affect gut flora.
Coke is especially bad btw as longterm it can also affect bones & kidneys , nothing to do with fasting, just that it's crap.

Another FD tip - to help avoid headaches:
Glug down a teasp Marmite mid-morning and / or mid-afternoon (even if you hate it, regard it as medicine !)
This replenishes salt and other minerals which may be low, especially while your body adapts to fasting

OP posts:
welshmumofboys · 17/04/2020 11:32

Good luck to all Friday fasters.

Does anyone else struggle with sleep after a fast? I had an awful night last night and Tuesday night. I'm not the best sleeper anyway, but last night was far worse than usual. I wasn't particularly hungry going to bed as I'd saved the majority of my calories for last night's meal.

Waspie · 17/04/2020 12:31

Good luck Friday fasters Brew

Well done on your SV emcla, and on your FDs welsh and brio!

I know what you mean Welshmumofboys; I often have difficulty sleeping on FDs. I'm not sure why either; in theory I should sleep well as I'm nice and relaxed without any alcohol or caffeine to keep me awake.

BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2020 15:05

There is some evidence of this for some people, at least until they become experienced fasters
(Personally, I have always slept soundly though)

It has been suggested that it is evolutionary, a ramping up of alertness during times of short food, to get out and hunt
I don't know about that ! Grin

What helps sleep

  • Cut out energy drinks
  • No caffeine - coffee, coke etc - after 3 pm
  • Stop exercise at least 3 hrs before bed, other than a short gentle walk
  • Stop screens - phone, tablet, TV, gaming etc - at least 1 hr before bed
  • IF you are able to save all / some of your 500 cals for supper, that avoids late hunger and can help sleep - but leave 2 hours before bed, so your tum is not too full either
  • Don't have a late night fruit or other sweet snack

NFDs:

  • If you have a big evening meal, stop eating 3 hours before bed.
  • Don't have a late night alcoholic drink. It also disturbs sleep. Have any alcohol as part of lunch & supper, then no more.
  • Do not nibble on junk either after supper. Sugary / carby crap spikes insulin and can keep you awake.
OP posts:
inthethickofit19 · 17/04/2020 16:33

FD done. Kitchen closed (at least for me!)

BigChocFrenzy · 17/04/2020 20:51

Well done, inthethick

OP posts:
moonlight1705 · 18/04/2020 08:03

Morning, been off for a week enjoying Easter but it has taken a hit on the weight loss. I've put on 0.5kg but we have had a lovely time at home. Back on it this week.

So sorry to hear about your aunt nose I am just catching up with all the messages and new thread but welcome new people Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2020 09:08

Don't worry, Moon Have a good week with 2 FDs and sensible NFDs and you'll be back on track

OP posts:
Moanranger · 18/04/2020 16:01

Hello 5:2 tasters, May I join? I have read a lot about fasting & found the science interesting, but in the past I have had difficulty in sticking with it. During lockdown, I have taken advantage of the structure of it to improve the consistency of my exercise routines, & am now thinking of adding in two fasting days.
I have been able to restrict my calories in boot camp type settings, but I have found it more challenging at home, but I think If I can persevere for the first two weeks, I will be successful. Half-way through Jin’s book, so planning my first fast day on Monday. My TTDH is fairly generous, but I plan to restrict Mos & Thurs, then delay my first food on Tues -Fri until as late as possible. Any thoughts?
I will report in on Mon

BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2020 17:34

Welcome, Moan 🙂

Sounds fine
I suggest you review progress and tweak if need be after 2 - 3 weeks

Lots on info and links in the OP

On FDs
Mosely recommends plenty of protein to stay full
All that is "banned" on FDs is alcohol and junk

For best results, try to keep 5:2 healthy habits on NFDs, even at weekends:

  • NHS alcohol limits - daily & weekly
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals - eat meals, nothing between
  • AIm for a daily eating window of no more than 12 hours, called 12:12 e.g. first meal at 8am and finish last meal by 8pm
  • On NFDs, you can have sensible amount of treats (e.g. alcohol, lattes, crisps, sugary treats) BUT only part of a meal, not on their own
  • Lots of water & veg each day
  • Cut down on fizzy drinks, even diet ones (sparkling UNflavoured water is fine)
OP posts:
emcla · 18/04/2020 19:48

Welcome moan !

I have a question. Do most of you skip breakfast on nfd’s. I know we discussed this before but I can’t remember Blush

BigChocFrenzy · 18/04/2020 23:18

emcla Some people do better with breakfast; some without - just coffee
Do whatever works for you

OP posts:
moonlight1705 · 19/04/2020 06:58

I do emcla as it feels like I can wait for that first bite. After that then I want to eat more so have to control the cravings. The latest I have made it was 2.30pm as I had a meeting Smile

jcurve · 19/04/2020 08:40

Hi everyone, I have dipped in & out of 5:2 over the years. I’m currently very grateful for it in lockdown though! When we started WFH, I restarted a Mon/Wed fast day routine as I find 5:2 much easier than being “good” 7 days a week.

I tried on my work trousers this week & happily they are noticeably looser than per-lockdown. All I wanted was to stay the same, so this is a great NSV for me!

BigChocFrenzy · 19/04/2020 17:44

Congratulations on your trousers NSV, JCurve
Next goal is the Trousers Falling Down NSV Grin

OP posts:
emcla · 19/04/2020 20:27

Hi all. Anyone fasting with me tomorrow? I had an overindulgent weekend. Hard with all the baking and yummy food. Back on track tomorrow.

jcurve · 19/04/2020 21:06

I will be emcla. Good luck!

Moanranger · 19/04/2020 21:30

Fasting tomorrow also

emcla · 19/04/2020 22:00

Good luck moan and jcurve.

HandsDownRoundTheTown · 19/04/2020 22:42

I’ll be fasting on Mon. Coffee and water until about 6pm, then a veggie dinner of some variety. Not as prepped as I would usually be due to lockdown shopping restrictions but will manage it somehow. Might be beans on toast for tea!

inthethickofit19 · 19/04/2020 23:03

Me too! I was just thinking of what to have and beans on toast really appeal... some cheese too lol