5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

I first tried 5:2 in 2015. I lost 2 1/2 stone in 5 months and was so delighted. Ds and I then went to oz for 6 weeks and I've struggled to get back into it for longer than a week ever since , despite the amazingly supportive and knowledgable members of this group.

A looming big birthday is my motivation to stay focussed this time. I'm fully embracing my midlife crisis and would like to be as healthy as I can to get the most out of it

Re mfp, I've deleted it. It was fine as a guide but you're relying on some random entering the correct information. There is an app that is either specifically for 5:2 or at least allows for it so no twice-weekly telling off!! I'll see if I can find it.

It's called track my fast

That's shocking millenium I think 5:2 has become a lot more mainstream now, I do still get lots of questions about it if people ask how I've lost the weight as people just don't get it. But 5:2 has worked for me so well, I'd never done a proper 'diet' (SW, WW, calorie counting etc) before, but I had done exercise and eating plans, which worked well but were just a bit too restrictive for me to keep at!

Marking my place on the new thread, good to see lots of activity. FD yesterday, and despite a bank holiday weekend of eating A LOT I have managed to lose 1/2lb, putting me 1 1/2lbs away from target. I'm not overly focussed on the weight target at the moment though as I am certainly feeling leaner and fitter and the boditrax machine shows that I have lost fat and gained a little bit of muscle (plus says my metabolic age is 24, I like the idea that I'm kind of 24). So I'm going to 5:2 until the end of the month and then 6:1 (with extra FDs if needed!), plus keep up with the exercise!

Had a HUGE NSV this weekend- found out I can do the monkey bars! DS loves monkey bars and can whizz across them at super speed so I had a try (having failed miserably the last few times) and smashed it! Maybe I'll even manage a chin up one day!

43, you are so close to the 'healthy' BMI now! Have you tried measuring body fat percentage? I find that a really good measure of how fit and healthy you are as weight is not always the best way to assess- we all have a different frame size and different levels of muscle so we shouldn't all aim for a BMI of 22. The US Navy calculator offers a pretty good guide of what your body fat level is.

Well done Tuesday Fasters - I managed a pretty good day too at around 600 cal.

Millenium I have lost around 7.2 kg ( about a stone?) in three months. This has been relatively easy, with some ups and downs. I feel great. A little nervous about maintenance, but am definitely thinking more about what I eat on NFDs so that's a start!

Well done my lovelies. Such encouragement on here
After a break I am getting back into this WOE. Another fast day today b2b, but I am running out of marmite
But, am going out with DH to a Greek restaurant. Hope I make good choices and not go for must think poo crumbs

Evening all...loving all the 5:2 successes, it's very motivating! Went about 100 cals over today as I was really ravenous in spite of a good large protein lunch (approaching totm and hugely craving carbs). I'm a bit cross with myself but I tried to choose "good" calories and so it was extra protein that pushed me over and I'm now more or less satisfied hunger wise so that's it until tomorrow. Though I'd murder a pizza or a slice of thick buttered toast. It's also been a horrible wet and cold day here so that makes me want to eat stodge! Anyone else struggle today?

Good progress, earslaps you're so near to goal
and that's a great strength NSV

millenium That's disgracefully ignorant of them, even for 2013

• talkinpeace and others stared these threads back in 2012 (I joined 2013) so it's a shame you didn't find us then.

If you ever need to refute doibters in future, the "Scientific Evidence for Health & Fasting" section at the end of the OP lists peer-reviewed scientific research

That's fine, ernie you made the right choice with extra protein - sometimes 800 is just too tough
The hormonal changes at totm often increase carb cravings, so you did well to resist those

Mmmm, Greek food is delicious, hoochy and pretty much the kind of Mediteranean food that Mosely recommends
Good choices are grilled fish, lamb, mediterranean veg, veg / tomato rice, aubergines, tsatziki, hummus, olives, olive oil < drools >

That's good progress, wonderful

clutter If you have problems with FDs, what is your typical meal plan ?
Maybe we can suggest tweaks to help

Kitchen on 1st of a b2b closing on 647 such a busy day I haven't really thought about it! Suspect tomorrow will be similar... got my lunch bananas packed!

harriet - me too!

Also one way to reduce food consumption is to find your rye bread has gone mouldy! Had to rush to find a substitute and ended up with coop houmous/carrot snack pack instead at less calories! Kitchen closed and mint tea on the go now

Kitchen has closed on probably around 700 but it was an impromptu b2b so I'm not too worried.

So much easier to fast when busy at work and after a good night's sleep! The day slipped by easily and I didn't once feel hungry - what a difference from yesterday.

Well done, Harriet, Maud, miffy

Quick recovery from that rye disaster, miffy, well done

Good to hear today was so much easier, Maud

You're right:
FDs are so much easier with a good sleep the night before and on a busy day
Also with a sensible NFD before, especially after lunch, i.e. avoiding excess alcohol & junky / sugary carbs

• v v tough starting an FD when exhausted, hungover or with insulin levels crashing

Yes I cannot do FDs hungover...

@miffy your domesticity sounds like it matches mine

Morning all!
Another FD here for me - quiteblooking forward to it in a way as I massively overindulged at my client lunch yesterday.
It was fusion Asian and so everything was on tiny plates and i accidentally forgot to be good 😂

earflaps massive kudos on the monkey bars!! I've tried them recently and they are HARD! Hugely impressed!

I tried cartwheels at the weekend... my leg and bum muscles are only just recovering now!

Signing in for a FD too mill. Tiny plates would make for a very difficult meal for me too, if I'm calorie counting I like to have one thing that I can be reasonably sure of. Is anyone else fasting today?

@millie @essential I am day 2 of a b2b!

Also had an excellent scale whoosh - am 16 lb down since last April and only 1lb above my lowest weight since my 2013 wedding starvation diet!! (Ditched both diet and husband soon thereafter )

It's been ages since my last check in and haven't caught up on the new thread, but sounds like everyone is doing brilliantly. Welcome to new members - this WOE really is an amazing tool.

I've been a bit quiet as I'm still trying to get used to this maintenance thing. Since reaching my original goal weight, I actually dropped another kg and a bit. I'm now at the bottom end of the 'ideal weight calculator' thingy. To be honest, I have found it harder than I imagined to give up the sense of achievement that comes with losing weight. I'm at home with small kids and changing my WOE and seeing the weight come off really gave me a mood lift from the tangible results. I guess it will be a while until I realise the changes are 'permanent' (for as long as I keep up the lifestyle changes, that is), and shift my goals to other forms of self-improvement, haha. Like maybe doing a press up or two...

Weirdly, I find that even on 6:1 I am losing a bit if I don't watch it. I am trying to increase things like lentils and pulses, and increase my portion size of these too. I already eat what feels like a huge amount of natural full-fat yoghurt, and cottage cheese.

It's TOTM here, though, and definitely haven't lost this week, so maybe I'm getting the hang of it. I really want to maintain at least one FD, as I have got to enjoy the light and clear feeling, and the recalibration. Also don't want to drop out of the thread, either, with all of the amazing FD discipline and enouragement!

So, still a work in progress here.... Will read back through now.

Checking in for a FD here too- planning on a very small bowl of lentil and bacon soup for lunch (homemade, no idea of calories) and then sea bass with a tomato and parmesan crust, plus a ton of salad and veg. I'm not being ultra strict about the calories today as we all seem to be fighting a cold, and I did a nearly 7km run this morning so if I'm around 700-800 I don't mind.

fiddle interesting to hear about your start to maintenance, I'm nearly there and I keep changing my mind about how to do it- whether to have two 800 calories FDs or one very strict 500 calorie FD. In reality I'll probably just mix it up a bit depending on what's happening in my life, what exercise I do etc. And school holidays I'll probably just do a few days of 16:8 as it's too damn hard to fast in those!

I do want to keep doing some kind of fasting though, as it does help me to feel so much better and the studies seem to show it's so good for your health. It makes me focus on eating good food, and DH is still mostly doing 5:2 (not this week as he's ill with man flu, plus he tends to have around 700 calories, but he has lost about 10lbs in a month and a half I think) so I want to eat supportively if that makes sense!

I definitely agree that a sense of achievement in something is important fiddle. I do get that with exercise- shaving a little bit of time off your running time, adding a little bit of extra weight to an exercise or just getting through a damn hard class all sweaty and enjoying the endorphins! I'm so pleased that I'm going to be entering my 40s a lot fitter than I was in my 20s and hoping that by keeping fit and eating well I can keep as healthy as possible for as long as possible.

Congratulations on your SV, harriet
Just one 1lb away from that pre-wedding milestone and no need for that useles 12 stone or whatever at the altar

Good to hear how easy you are finding maintenance, fiddle
You may have a small frame which suits the low end of BMI, but obviously want to stay above BMI 18
If you are concerned about dropping below this ...

Nutritious high cal food - try adding something on a couple of NFDs
. Oily fish like salmon & mackerel - v healthy
. avocados
. unsalted nuts / seeds
. hummus, tzatziki
. olive oil (NOT standard veg oil) drizzled over salads or baked veg
. 2 squares of 85-90% cocoa chocolate (this is v high antioxidant and v little sugar)
e.g. Lindt Mild Excellence

So, weird question. Does anyone else notice that their flabby bits actually feel different, or is it just me?

I'm sure I remember something from my LCHF days about fat cells emptying or something and therefore the muffin top feeling a bit different/squishier/less solid just before you lose a couple of pounds?

I will be very embarrassed if I've imagined this

Hi Everyone! I started Tuesday, and have been extra good. Today was my first fast day and I think I’ve come in at 508 or so. Had what felt like a mountain of broccoli and pak Choi with a quorn fillet for tea. I was a bit worried as I’m a little under the weather, and I was at work all day. But I feel fine. I’m due on imminently so I’m not holding my breath for any mad weightloss but will need to be in it for the long haul as I have a LOT to lose! So 2lb a week for the foreseeable will be just fine! It’s so good to see you le hints and tips And all the success stories! Very inspiring!!

Well done harriet, wel! Fiddle that's really interesting to read - that's what I'm worried about with maintenance too (though you've articulated it better than I could have).

maud I had a definite feeling of something a bit odd in my body (esp belly) before a whoosh, but couldn't put it into words. I have read similar.

FD here, just finishing a decaf coffee (I seem to write the same thing every time!). Sushi for lunch - not my choice but DH bought it as a treat so I ate it, and actually because it was quite a small portion at 300 cal I felt a bit hungry. Dinner was a small amount of homemade bolognese (no pasta) and some frozen veg. I'm guessing a bit but I think 600 calories all in.

ear how did you get on?

Welcome Daphne, there are lots of success stories on here so if you stick at this you will succeed! Just follow BigChoc's advice re NO SNACKING and NHS alcohol limits and you'll be shrinking in no time (plus massive improvements to your health).

Maud yes I definitely had wobbly fat before it went. Partly, it is apparently fat cells filling with water before they shrink. Partly it is less fat in the same amount of skin (it takes a while for the skin to shrink back)- imagine if you took some of the stuffing out of a pillow.

Had a lovely meal this evening- sea bass parmigiana with roasted vegetables. Came in at roughly 330 calories. Really easy to do as well. I love that 5:2 is making me eat more fish, we never had it before but we eat it every week (often more) now. Nice square of dark choc after and I'll have herbal tea for the rest of the evening.

Off to the gym first thing, so I'll make a small chia seed pot to eat before I go, maybe a protein fruit and veg smoothie after I get back.

I'm such a slow typist Hummus (plus got interrupted by DS wanting to be tucked in) so cross post. Well done on your FD!