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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

968 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/05/2019 10:15

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/05/2019 20:44

Welcome, daphne 🙂
and well done on your 1st FD

Lots of people have started 5:2 at a high BMI and reached goal
With a high BMI, most people lose quite quickly for quite some time

Tip:
on NFDs, try to keep 5:2 healthy habits, even at weekends:^

  • NHS alcohol limits,
  • NEVER snack / graze between meals,
  • have sensible amount of treats and only as part of a meal
  • lots of water & veg
  • cut down on flavoured fizzy drinks, even diet oneshh

Tip:
glug down a level teasp Marmiite mid-morning & mid afternoon.
This replenishes lost salt & minerals while your body is adapting to fasting and hence helps acoid headaches and weaknesses.

OP posts:
EssentialHummus · 09/05/2019 20:47

Good work ear! That fish sounds yummy.

BigChocFrenzy · 09/05/2019 20:49

Maud The theory of whoosh ! Smile

... is that when you burn a lot of fat, sometimes homeostasis will cause the body fat cells to refill with water, to try to maintain weight
This can make those areas feel different

If you persist with the WOE then within about 2 weeks this water will be released from the fat cells
and you see a whoosh on the scales

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 09/05/2019 20:56

Well done, hummus, earslaps

Fish is a very healthy choice and 5:2 has also made me it eat much more often, especially salmon
Prawns are a good low cal FD choice, e.g. in a veg stir fry or salad

  • Mosely recommends fish as part of a healthy Mediteranean diet, whether or not you go low carb.
Boost olive oil too, especially on NFDs
OP posts:
WeldMeDaphne · 09/05/2019 20:56

The marmite thing... are you making it into a hot drink or just eating it off the teaspoon?!? Water has always been my downfall- but I have a new (corporate branded) water bottle so I’m aiming for 3x a day and so far doing Ok. I have an interim goal of a summer holiday in August so hopefully breaking my goal down a bit will help!

milleniumhandandprawn · 09/05/2019 21:41

Well done hummus and ear!
fd done here too - finished off at 476. Just having a ginger tea before bed.

Tried the marmite drink today. Omg what a revelation - I did 1.5tsp in a cup of hot water (I like it strong) and it completely transformed my fast day into something I quite enjoyed!

I've now got jars of marmite every where - home and work!

I'm looking forward to that woosh.... maybe next week Grin

milleniumhandandprawn · 09/05/2019 21:42

Well done daphne too!

MaudBaileysGreenTurban · 09/05/2019 21:46

Ahhh, the whoosh! Yes! I knew I remembered something like that Grin

Well, here's hoping. Now that I've realised black coffee is my secret fasting weapon I really do feel as if this is a very sustainable WOE.

Daphne - I prefer Bovril to Marmite - makes a lovely savoury drink that can be very helpful is you get a bit chilly on fasting days (I do sometimes) and its not quite as...Marmitey...as Marmite.

Earslaps · 09/05/2019 21:51

I like the marmite just off the spoon! I ate it like that before 5:2 anyway!

Yes, prawns are amazing for fast days. A recipe I love- gently fry one clove of garlic per person in half a tbsp of olive oil, add a pinch of dried chopped chilli and then fry about 70g of prawns and a few chopped cherry tomatoes per person in. Add a touch of water if it gets dry and cook until prawns are cooked/warmed (depending if they were ready cooked or not) and the tomatoes have softened. Stir all that into 50g/person of Aldi's soya or edamame spaghetti (uncooked weight). Serve topped with rocket. Can't remember the exact calories but there is a ton of protein and fibre in that and it's so tasty.

OohMrDarcy · 10/05/2019 07:35

Morning all

Checking in for my usual Friday FD here, anyone with me?

I'm making a chicken stir fry tonight which will be most of my calories and fbe rest I suspect will go on throat sweets as I have a delightful cough / sore throat.

Welcome daphne - take all the advice on board and you'll be fine. My BMI at the start of the year was 41.7 so had a very long way to go. I'm at 35.8 now and making good progress. All I will say for now is no snacking, sensible with the booze, plenty of water as often as you can (it helps with hunger on FD ) and break down the goal into LOTS of little ones. I have 10lb mini goals as well as percentage weight loss ones and BMI changes. Its important to feel like you are making progress if you have a way to go, and doing it this way I seem to reach a mini goal every few weeks - and then I have a non food reward to give myself a boost too.

housewifeoflittleitaly · 10/05/2019 08:06

Morning everyone,

Has anyone has a plateau? I’ve lost about 12lbs but can’t get any further. I’ve really watched my calories but I’ve been at this weight for about 10 days now. Any ideas?

OohMrDarcy · 10/05/2019 08:59

Housewife - a plateau is normal occasionally. Are you getting close to goal or have you lost a significant portion of what you need to?

Also worth thinking about - are you drinking enough water ? Are you keeping to NHS alcohol limits?

Good luck and hope it sorts itself out for you soon.

BigChocFrenzy · 10/05/2019 11:16

Well done, Millenium

daphne Glug down the Marmite from the spoon, like medicine

Bovril is an alternative if you just want a hot savoury drink, much lower cal (10) than soup
BUT
to avoid headaches or feeling weak, Marmite is much better than Bovril - Marmite has more good stuff in it.

Housewife On any diet, it's quite usual to have a plateau occasionally, after you've lst a chunk of weight
Your body is just rebalancing and consolidating the loss.

A plateau is defined as 3 weeks+ without loss, while keeping to the rules

If it is has only been 10 days or so, it may well be that you have lost an lb of fat, but this is disguised by water fouctuations or undigested food etc
Weight can naturally fluctuate a couple of lb (even when not dieting) and we call this a temporary blip, which can be ignored

Just stay focused, keep NFDs sensible and whether it's a genuine plateau or just a blip, you should eventually start to lose

OP posts:
milleniumhandandprawn · 10/05/2019 11:39

Thanks choc
I've a random day off today - NFD but am quite liking the fact that when bored my mind hasn't instantly turned to food.... maybe it's working it's psychological magic already!

housewife if you're on or due your period it could be that water retention is masking any weight loss as well - that always puts 2-3 lbs on for me.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 10/05/2019 13:37

afternoon everyone, had a busy couple of days so only now catching up on the thread. Well done to all the weds and thurs fasters Smile

earslaps fab SV, so close now.... no i haven't measured fat, tbh I wouldn't know where to start.

Well done on your SV harriet

fiddle you have done so well, I'm sure you will find your balance soon

Welcome daphne and good luck

house I have plateaued a couple of times, just keep at it, I know its very frustrating to see the scales not budging, but twice for me they have started moving again and they will for you Smile

I'm fasting today also mrd just had my subway salad and sugar free jelly, soup for dinner I think as its still so cold here (brrrrrr)

Earslaps · 10/05/2019 14:25

house- I plateaued for nearly a month last time I did 5:2, but in that time I dropped a dress size and a bit! I often find that when the weight doesn't shift I shrink, then when the weight drops my size doesn't really change. The other important thing to remember about plateaus (plateaux?) is that your weight hasn't increased.

NFD here, had a small chia seed pot at 5.30, then an intense exercise class at 6.15, a protein smoothie after that and then a long dog walk with a friend with a lot of scrambling up hills! Now tucking into a huge bowl of lentil and bacon soup and toasted rye bread. And a cheeky bar of chocolate after! Pork belly and noodles for tea Smile

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 10/05/2019 15:10

its funny you say that ears as I am now in another plateau and yet my shape is changing, my clothes are much much looser on me, bones are reappearing etc, but the scales haven't budged - we are peculiar aren't we!

Your day sounds amazing (well apart from the exercise classes) the dog walk and lunch sounds fab though Grin

I'm the only one left on the corridor and there is a box of Lindt ball chocs opposite me.... I am going to take one and put in my drawer for next NFD, and then hide the box! Arghhhhhhh....... I WILL NOT EAT THE CHOC, I WILL NOT EAT THE CHOC

EssentialHummus · 10/05/2019 15:16

43, take the box and find another department in your office who’ll be grateful for it! That’s what I’d do anyway, otherwise I’d find it too much to stare at all afternoon.

I’m another one in the depths of a plateau, you have my sympathies 43 and house. I know that I have gotten through them before, and that is what keeps me going.

blodynmawr · 10/05/2019 15:19

FD yesterday and another 3lb off this week Smile.
Plateaud for most of April but was sticking to the plan - weird isn't it? I have now lost 22lbs since January. Have done 5:2 throughout with about 600-700 cals on FDs. Also have not totally cut out carbs e.g. on NFDs I will still have a piece of home made bread with soup for lunch Wink. Suspect I will need to be stricter with carbs the closer I get to goal....

OohMrDarcy · 10/05/2019 15:52

43, get those chocs hidden! They are amazing and moorish and I cant allow them in the house here 🙄

BigChocFrenzy · 10/05/2019 17:06

Congratulations on your SV, blodyn Good progress

As you get near to goal, for many people it's not the starchy carbs - potato, rice, bread etc - they need to watch,
so much as the alcohol and junky carbs, e.g. crisps, pizza, deep-fried food, sweets, milk / filled chocs, biscuits, cake etc

43 if those chocs are too tempting, maybe offer them around a large group first, spread the joy, so there are only a few left

OP posts:
OohMrDarcy · 10/05/2019 17:58

Kitchen closed on somewhere around 400 / 450 I guess, very happy that I've had a good nutritious meal - chicken with rice noodles and stir fried carrots / green beans / brocolli / spring onions / babycorn with a bit of garlic and light soy (and cooked in a pan that doesn't need oil!)

We shall see what tomorrow brings on the scales and keep on either way as this way of eating just makes me feel good. Oh speaking of which - NSV the skin has cleared up again in the last month or so, so super happy there Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 10/05/2019 18:52

Well done on your SV, MrD
and that's a very pleasing skin NSV - 5:2 can help some skin problems, especially those that are related to insulin metabolism

OP posts:
Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 10/05/2019 19:09

I resisted the chocs :-) locked 1 in my drawer for next week then put the box in another office and locked the door Grin

Fd finished here too mrd your tea sounds delicious. I was coming in at about 490 but had to get a skinny latte to get me through commute home and the food shop so finishing on 560ish, happy with that Smile

Fab sv blody Smile

OohMrDarcy · 10/05/2019 19:17

43 bloody well done on resisting the chocs!