5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

[BigChocFrenzy]

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

• WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
• HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
• SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
• EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.

HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.

• FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.

Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.

• BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.

You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.

• NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.

• Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.

• CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

Posted too soon sorry- doing it this way as both the rapid and 800 cals not 500 appealed. I struggle less on 800 cals that’s for sure.

Morning all...I imagine a few of us are trying to pull back after some non-plan behaviour over the weekend! I have planned my meals for the next four or five days so feeling in control. It struck me as I made my breakfast (spinach & mushroom omelette) that some habits (which I previously thought were 'good e.g. on Slimming World) are hard to break. For example I had been using Frylight to cook with rather than oil or butter. What dieting habits have you had to break?
Also, what good discoveries have you made that are helping? I bought radishes the other day, they are lovely and crunchy and a satisfying savoury hit with plenty of salt! Also, roasted red peppers in a jar are amazingly low cal and make a nice basis for soup with some tinned toms and a few red lentils for protein.
Do many of you follow recipes from the book or do you try to adapt your own recipes? I'm very much the latter, I never follow recipes really but am weighing and counting cals carefully.

Enough questions! Off to do some housework.

Hi all, hope it's ok to join, I've just started the Fast 800 today and have to say I'm a bit baffled by it all. My plan is to stick to 800 cals a day for 2 or 3 weeks and then switch to 5:2.

My starting weight is 11st 13lb and I'd love to get down to 10st eventually!

What’s baffling Shostakobitch? (I might be able to help...maybe!)

It doesn't take much to baffle me to be fair 😂

I'm absolutely addicted to the low calorie flavoured sparkling waters from Asda, can I still drink these or should I just stick to plain water?

Are carbs ok? Obviously not by the bucket but I've had poached eggs and half a tin of beans for breakfast, would this be ok?

And when I do move to 5:2 should I stick to 800 cals on fast days or go down to 500? Or shall I just see how it all goes?

Hi Shostakobitch (great name!). Beans are a source of protein so generally ok BUT baked beans are full of sugar in the sauce so I would say avoid. I tend to have spinach and mushroom with my eggs. When you move to 5:2 it's still 800 cals on a fast day (this is the new 5:2). Good luck!

wonderful around totm, the hormonal changes cause water retention,
so most women gain at least a couple of lb; some gain several

That water will be released again during the first FD after totm ends

Keep drinking plenty of water though, or your body may hang onto water

alcohol:

It depends whether you are doing ordinary 5:2, or Fast800

On Fast800 - and on 5:2 FDs - NO alcohol

On 5:2, just keep within the NHS limits, i.e. 2 units per NFD

• e.g. that is either 1 x 440 ml can of beer / cider OR 1 x 175 ml glass wine

Alcohol takes you out of ketosis, but you won't be in ketosis unless you are low carbing and / or on an FD

re which is better / worse:

A glass of red wine is probably the best choice, but the most important factor is to stay within the 2 unit daily limit
Try to avoid very sweet alcoholic drinks, like some liqueurs, e.g. Bailey's
Also, beer is very fattening.

All (healthy) fasting variations are welcome here, Miffy, teta 🙂

With Fast800, if 800 cals every day is too tough, it's ok to have some NFDs at TDEE

What matters:
Keep to Mosely's low carb rules even on "normal" days, i.e. no starches, added sugar, or booze

Otherwise, you get out of ketosis for those days and then take another 2 days getting back
You'll still lose with the 800 cal days, but not as quickly

For better results on Fast800, even on NFDs, try to make it a dry month or two
At least keep within the 2 units daily NHS limit

Welcome, Shosta

Fast800 is daily low carb Mediteranean:

The low carb is essential
both to get into ketosis and to obtain sufficient nutrients
Daily 800 of any old calories won't work as well and might even be unhealthy

• No starchy carbs - bread, potato, pasta, rice, pies etc
  No added sugar - cake, bíscuits, choc, sweets, pastries etc

• Mosely encourages plenty of fish, not just meat & eggs

• He recommends that most days you have peas / beans / lentils to help stabilise blood sugar
  BUT not baked beans because of the added sugar - so have your eggs with tomato, mushroom but without bread or baked beans

• He recommends full fat Greek yoghurt

• Also (in sensible amounts) nuts & seeds, olive oil, cheese

When you move to 5:2, decide whether you want to continue low carbing or move to normal food

5:2 Low Carb has 800 cal FDs
5:2 normal has 500 cals

• however you can still lose on 800 if you have a high TDEE (>2400) e.g. bloke / very tall / intense exerciser

ernie The 800 FDs on normal 5:2 do NOT work so well for many women - short / peri or post meno / "hard losers" / thyroid / PCOS / sedentary etc
Almost all men can lose well on 800 because of their higher TDEE and different body composition

ernie Oils on Fast800

Spray oils can still be a useful tool
It's your choice about how many calories for oil

Olive oil is very healthy, but has about 90 cals per level tbsp
On 800 cals days, you may feel fuller with a bit more protein for those calories instead and enjoy the olive oil on your TDEE days
It's very individual, which % of fat to % protein keeps you feeling fuller

Low Carb Ketchup is very handy too
There are a few brands with stevia or just the Heinz reduced sugar one

Ace thanks for the useful summary BigChoc I fear I’ve been a bit ‘whatever’ with regards to biscuits/sugar on my non-800 days which probably isn’t helping with ketosis. I’m also thinking I could stretch out my fasts longer now which might help...?

miffy The length of the fasting period is much less important than what you actually consume during the eating window

However, Mosely and other fasting experts like Longo recommend extending the daily overnight fast - no calories - to 12 hours, e.g. 8pm to 8am
This daily fast has longterm benefits for both health and weight

Some people like to extend further and skip breakfast for 16:8 or 14:10, whereas others do better with breakfast
Women tend to find 14:10 (a 14-hour fasting window) more sustainable than 16:8

It's your choice, 12 / 14 / 16 hours / a mixture on different days, depending on what works for your individual body.

Try to finish eating by 8pm

• not just for weight, but because research shows that eating after this increases the risks of high BP, stroke, CVD (a carrot or small milky drink doesn't matter though)

the most important thing to nail on Fast800 is low carbing
so avoid added sugar - biscuits, cake, sweets etc - on NFDs
also avoid alcohol or - on NFDs only - at most 1 x 175 glass wine in a day

Next, cut out all snacking / grazing between meals, FDs & NFDs
Same for 5:2 - eat only meals, nothing between

Even "healthy" snacks keep insulin raised which hinders fat-burning and increases overall hunger
Also, research shows that people who snack consume more calories daily, because their next meal size is not reduced by as many calories as their snack.

How did you get on clutter?

Ithink I have similar around TOTM - I have a graph for my weight and see it fluctuate then, like clockwork.

Just having my last decaf coffee of the day here. Usual meal at lunchtime, rice cake in the evening. I didn't calorie count but expect to come in around 600 cals. B2b tomorrow, hopefully. I have spent the last few hours gardening so all being well that's a useful little bit of exercise and fresh air too.

Not too bad, thanks. I managed to avoid eating until about 4. I don't actually feel hungry now so I think I'm going to leave the vege curry I'd planned for tea and have it for lunch tomorrow.

Well done on your FD, Hummus, Clutter

Morning all

I'm back and ready for a Tuesday FD. Scales showing 2lb gain this morning but I know there is a much needed number 2 due which will account for some if not all of that! (For some reason I never need a poo when camping!)

Will check back once I've done the school run and catch up properly !

morning all,

bcf you sound like you have a wonderful work / life balance, very jealous I must admit

congratulations liquid (i also remember you) and enjoy all those newborn snuggles

wonderful don't get disheartened, is it likely to be around totm? keep with it and after your next FDs it'll be a loss i'm sure

welcome shosta and miffy and good luck

Well done to the bank hol mon fasters hummus and clutter

FD today and feeling sluggish and yukky after the long weekend, next fd planned for friday, just 18 days until my holiday and must admit not feeling great about the prospect of a swimming costume my totm is also due the day after I fly Dr has prescribed me norethisterone to delay period but I've never taken it, has anyone here? does it make you feel bloated and swollen? Can't work out which would be worse really.... hmmmmm

Anyway, hope everyone has a good day

Aiming for a FD today but not feeling it tbh. Terrible night's sleep - weird unsettling dreams, earache, worry about ds's upcoming exams...ugh. Feel washed out and shattered. But I figure I can always find an excuse not to do a FD and I don't want to get in the habit of putting them off especially when I was doing so well.

I'll see how I go today, coffee might help!

I'm joining you @oohmr @fortythree and @maud. We got this!!

Good luck, MrD, 43, Maud

You've been doing really well, maud getting into the fasting swing.
Try not to put off FDs unless unwell, or if you have a social engagement
You've done your best for DS; up to him now and you'll support him whatever the results

A black coffee might shock you into gear
You could even do a 4 minute HIIT Fat Blast afterwards, e.g. sprint intervals, jumping jacks, squats, punching the air .... whatever suits

Don't worry, MrD
You probably also enjoyed a lot of extra carbs on your camping weekend, so an FD will release the associated retained water
and a couple good dumps will get rid of the undigested food - walking also helps this.

43 I've always worked ft (no kids) but this is the final year before I retire, hence I chose pt to ease into retirement.
Being a scientist with qualifications across a few fields is very handy, because I have almost always been able to choose job, home & gym within walking / cycling distance.

I've enjoyed my various jobs - or I've quickly moved - but I work to live, not the other way
Looking forward to retirement !

Good luck, harriet
You sound very positive

Have had a scan back over the weekend - welcome to newbies and returners!

Looks like it was a busy weekend for most.

Hello all,
Can I join you?
I did the 5:2 a few years ago with some success.
Since then I've had another baby (who's now two...) and would like to finally get back to my ideal weight.

It's my first fast day today - so am chugging all of the the water and black coffee - and am planning to hold out until this evening for food.

Will have a little read of the thread later :)

Welcome, millenium 🙂
and good luck on your 1st FD back.

We've learned a lot about 5:2 and fasting over the past 6 years, lots of info in the OP as well.

Thank you for the pep talk BCF, and you're right! I will power on through with coffee and lots of water (dunno about the jumping jacks though )

Best of luck all Tuesday fasters!