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Fasting / 5:2 diet

Talk about intermittent fasting and 5:2, including what’s worked for others. Mumsnet hasn't checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. You may wish to speak to a medical professional before starting any diet.

5:2 Thread number 85: No need to tell people you are fasting - just show them your results.

968 replies

BigChocFrenzy · 03/05/2019 10:15

Welcome to the continuing thread for those following 5:2 or other forms of IF (Intermittent Fasting) such as 4:3, ADF, or daily 16:8 Smile

The 5:2 diet was introduced by Michael Mosely on BBC Horizon on August 2012:

Basically it is 2 very low cal days ("fasts") per week - which need not be consecutive - and eat "normally" to maintain on the other 5 days.

For those who have dieted or maybe overeaten for years, eating "normally"
means roughly the number of calories your body needs to maintain - NOT reduce - its weight (see TDEE calculator below).

IMPORTANT
If you have had Eating Disorders you should NOT do 5:2 or any other kind of fasting

ACRONYMS

16:8 is a different type of fasting, which can be combined with 5:2.
Daily zero-cal fast for 16 hours and eat within an 8 hour window. To lose weight, this needs a weekly calorie deficit as well

4:3 = fast on 3 non-consecutive days per week

ADF (Alternate-Day Fasting) = fast every other day

b2b (optional) back-to-back / consecutive fast days, each with an increased allowance of 650 calories instead of 500

BMI (Body Mass Index) healthy range is 18.5 - 24.9 for Caucasians. Upper limit may be 22 for some of Asian origin.

FD = single Fast Day: aim for 500 calories (600 for men or 25% TDEE whichever is higher) or 1000 cals for BF
No alcohol or junk on FDs
Even if you exercise strenuously, do NOT increase FD cals to allow for exercise

MFP = My Fitness Pal, a useful App or website to track food & drink calories

miniFD = MiniFD, 850- 1000 calories, no alcohol or junk

NFD = Non-Fast Day, averages around TDEE

NSV / LSV = Non Scale Victory / LifeStyle (change) Victory, e.g. compliment, smaller waist, clothes size

SV = Scale Victory

TDEE = Total Daily Energy Expenditure, the average number of calories you burn in a day, is calculated (see calculators below) from your current weight, height, age, activity level.
Aim to average about this for NFDs.

WOE / WOL = Way Of Eating / Way Of Life. We say this instead of "diet", to emphasise that we must make a permanent change in how we eat, to mainitain our new healthy weight longterm.

HOW TO START

. Take initial measurements: weight, waist, hips
. Use TDEE calculator below if you need a rough guide to how much to eat on NFDs
. Choose any 2 days for FDs, non-consecutive is easier.
. Before each FD: plan, shop & calorie count ALL food & drink for the day

Useful Resources & Calculators

Calorie Counter: mfp
Rough Calories for NFD: Mosely TDEE Calc (exercisers: set activity level to one below what you think)
BMI: Calc
Body Frame Size: Calc Frame
Calc Ideal Weight Range
Body Fat: BFat Calc
Choose / Visualise Goal Weight:
3D BMI body ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate]]

Safe Alcohol Calc: Calc Daily UnitsCalories , Calc Weekly Units

FD Recipes:
Mosely LowCarb , low carb Diet Doc
BBC Good Food 52 , BBC Good Food 500 cal meals ,
Good2Know ,
Vegetarian ,
Foodie Under 200 Cals

Any Day:
Meal Planner
FD Ready Meals, Takeaways, Restaurant: Mirror , Indie

FAQs / Tips

  • WATER: Start each day with a glass of water; and drink plenty during the day.
  • HOT DRINKS: No limits on tea or coffee, but on FDs count any milk / sugar calories.
  • SLEEP: Try to get enough sleep, or it may slow weight loss.
  • EXERCISE: is healthy & can help weight loss - BUT only if you do NOT eat back less than you burn. Fasted training can burn more fat.
HIIT and resistance training both work well with 5:2/IF.
  • FDs: If possible, choose days when you are busy, but not preparing meals for others.
Concentrate on protein & veg; avoid sugar or fruit juice. e.g. Stir-fries, soups & stews. Ready meals are OK.
  • BFers: start with 1000-cal FDs, optionally reduce to 700 cals gradually.
You can return to 1000 if growth spurts or sleep-deprivation require more fuel.
  • NFDs: No rules, but to improve health, try to cut down on added sugar & junk food, keep alcohol within safe limits. A few treats per week are fine.
  • Do NOT fast: if you've ever had EDs, or if pregnant, under 21, over-stressed, fever, stomach bug, even a bad cold.
  • CHECK with your Doctor: if you have diabetes, any other endocrine condition, any serious past or present medical condition, or if taking ANY prescribed medication (fasting may affect absorption rate)

Scientific Evidence for Fasting & Health

BBC article on the original Horizon program

Telegraph comments on 5:2 and gives a brief overview by Dr Mosley, useful for newbies.

This InterviewPart1 and InterviewPart2 with leading ADF researcher Dr Varady explains why fasting helps you to lose weight AND improves some health markers.

Fasting boosts "autophagy" = recycling of old cells
Yoshinori Ohsumi won the 2016 Nobel prize for Medicine for research into autophagy
NOBEL Lecture “Autophagy – An Intracellular Recycling System”

Prof. R Taylor (Newcastle Uni) won the 2013 Diabetes UK Banting Prize for his Twin Cycle Hypothesis re the cause of type 2 diabetes: Twin Cycle Hypothesis T2
and showed a fasting diet could reverse T2

Dr Michelle Harvie (funded by cancer charities) showed possible benefits of intermittent fasting compared to standard daily calorie reduction in her trials (consecutive FDs) with women at high risk of breast cancer: ComparingDiets , EarlierResearch52

Dr Johnson showed intermittent fasting helped Asthma

HORMESIS & Why Intermittent Fasting Works: Mattson , BlackSwan and Hormesis

Molecular Mechanisms and Clinical Applications: J CellMetabolism
Recent research into the health benefits of fasting: e.g. by world-respected neuroscientist Dr MarkMattson (Mosely referred to his research) showed:

. Improved glucose regulation
. Loss of abdominal fat with maintenance of muscle mass
. Reduced blood pressure and heart rate
. Improved learning and memory and motor function
. Protection of neurons in the brain against dysfunction and degeneration in animal models of Alzheimer’s disease, Parkinson’s disease, stroke and Huntington’s disease.

Brain metabolism in health, aging, andneurodegeneration :
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

He compared 5:2 to ordinary daily diets on overweight women with family history of breast cancer.
Fasting group lost more belly fat, retained more muscle & had slightly better blood sugar regulation.

More of his research is in HealthyAging , Health , AvoidParkinsonsDisease

His article in J Aging Mech Disease 2015 explains the health benefits of intermittent fasting in great scientific detail.

Why intermittent fasting and stopping snacking can lower your risk of serious diseases:
Meal frequency and timing in health and disease

Fasting can help maintain brain health during aging:
emboj.embopress.org/content/36/11/1474
"lifestyles that include intermittent bioenergetic challenges, most notably exercise and dietary energy restriction, can increase the likelihood that the brain will function optimally and in the absence of disease throughout life"

This interview with leading researchers into fasting in combination with standard cancer treatment: ScientificDiscussion MoselyMattsonLongo and a LongoInterview

NY Times Fasting Overview

Research by other US and European scientists in this DailyTelegraph Article about the medicinal uses of fasting, for many serious conditions & diseases.

Recent trials with Type 2 diabetics and those at risk of having it used a form of daily fasting - skipping supper.
Their conclusions: eating 1-2 meals per day is better than several small meals for losing weight and controlling insulin levels, see Type2Paper

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 04/05/2019 09:03

Ideal weight with the normal BMi range depends on the amount of muscle and on frame size:
Calc Ideal Weight Range

You can play around with the sliders on body visualisers, to check which kind of body shape your current weight is
and whether you wish to change it / whether it is practical:

3D BMI body types ripped to normal
Bod Vis Measurements & 3D rotate

OP posts:
Clutterfreeintraining · 04/05/2019 10:25

Morning everyone!

FD for me too. I've just forced myself into the shower in the hope I'm more motivated to be productive at life today (yesterday was a total write-off).

I'm also challenging myself to leave my phone alone for as much of the day as possible but will be back to see how everyone's doing this evening.

MrDarcy - enjoy your weekend!

43 - that's frustrating but sounds like you've nailed the maintenance part of this wol Grin

MaudBaileysGreenTurban · 04/05/2019 10:48

Morning all, happy bank holiday weekend!

I started off fasting yesterday (3rd fast day of the week) and was fully prepared to try an experiment with a full water fast for the whole day as dp was going out for the evening so no need to cook anything. But...on the way home from work a friend texted to ask if I wanted to come round for dinner - so I definitely didn't fast in the evening Grin

That does just show the flexibility of this way of life though! DP and I are out for dinner tonight with friends so I may just have coffee and water today and a lovely non-fasting dinner with wine tonight...we'll see. Whatever happens I've done my two proper FDs this week anyway, so no pressure.

Hope your FD goes well today clutter!

erniewise · 04/05/2019 11:16

So a little wine based slippage last night but I can live with that. I know it slows down loss but I can live with that too. If my scales are to be trusted, I'm 7lbs in under a week down and the measuring tape tells me I've lost over an inch from my waist! I am possibly dehydrated from wine so am not convinced by the weight loss but can the inch loss be right? Less bloated I guess?

erniewise · 04/05/2019 11:17

Oh, and have a great Saturday everyone! I haven't eaten yet, planning a huge spinach and mushroom omelette soon and then going for a long walk with the family.

Fortythreeandfatasfuck · 04/05/2019 12:32

That's fantastic ernie Smile

Thanks for the advice bcf I'm literally just hanging outside healthy bmi (25.9 I think) just did the waist / height measure thing and was very surprised (as I'm classic apple shape) that my waist is comfortably half my height, so that's a positive.

I've said before that I love wine Blush so it's quite possible that it's scuppering any loss although I have cut it down loads compared to 1 year ago.

I think I just need to keep on and see what happens, carry on eating to goal tdee and try and cut back more in alcohol....obviously there are the health benefits of fasting that I'm still benefitting from so this is definitely the WOL for me.

Good luck with your fd clutter

Enjoy your meal out maud

BigChocFrenzy · 04/05/2019 13:00

43 You are not much over healthy BMI, so don't stress about it
as your waist measurement is a healthy improvement for a natural apple

Check labels etc that there isn't a hidden calorie bomb that you have overlooked, e.g. a packet that has 4 portions instead of 1
Try to keep wine within NHS limits and be sensible about sweet treats too - both would have an influence when you havn't much to lose - you may break the plateau and lose slowly.

Otherwise, this WOE means you are maintaining at this weight, which is also good.

Sounds like you have adapted well to the WOE, maud

Water fasts are excellent for a maximum duration of about 22 hours, if you like them, but then always have a decent FD supper so that you don't go the full 36 hours without calories
The ¼ TDEE on each FD ensures that over time you retain all your muscle and have sufficient nutrients & energy

Well done on your SV and inches NSV, ernie
For most people, 1" less at the waist corresponds to about 5lb loss, so that fits

Enjoy the extra calories this weekend, with extra protein, veg & healthy oil

If you want to resume Fast800 on Monday, try to keep the total carbs - including wine - within about 70g per day
(that's the rough limit Mosely gave during our Webchat)
Otherwise, if low carb is too much strain, you could always move onto ordinary 5:2

OP posts:
erniewise · 04/05/2019 13:30

Oh that's very helpful re: the 70g carb limit, thank you BigChoc. I'm not really intending to be off plan all weekend, but have a family dinner tomorrow so may be a little slippage there but then I feel that it is important that I can work it around things like that. Plan plan plan all the way!

blodynmawr · 04/05/2019 15:16

Hello all. Not posted for a few weeks on the old thread as plateau'd a bit over the Easter hols... Anyway, good progress this week with 2lb off, despite an away day and night at a work event. As another poster said - I'm keeping on keeping onSmile

BigChocFrenzy · 04/05/2019 16:06

Congratulations on your SV, Blodynmawr
sounds like you have got your fasting system sorted

OP posts:
Clutterfreeintraining · 05/05/2019 07:58

Morning all!!
Yesterday's FD was a success but the first one usually is after I've had a long break - keeping up the momentum is where I come unstuck Blush.
Nfd today and I think another FD tomorrow.
I hope everyone's enjoying the bank holiday weekend Smile

BigChocFrenzy · 05/05/2019 08:06

Well done, clutter and good luck tomorrow

In Germany, the public holiday was 1 May and I'm back at work tomorrow, after 3 weeks peaceful staycation by the Rhine
However, it's pt now and stress-free, with lovely colleagues and an easy 8km cycling commute along safe paths.

OP posts:
liquidice · 05/05/2019 08:13

Morning all, I've been here before as purpleviolet and have just had my second dc (3 weeks old) via c section. Looking forward to getting back on the wagon! Relying on sugar at the moment to get me through the exhaustion but hoping to change my habits and start eating well..

Weight wise I've got a very flabby jelly belly Blush but don't seem to have put too much weight on elsewhere. Saying that I've not weighed myself Grin

Clutterfreeintraining · 05/05/2019 08:46

Thanks, BigChoc. As I was typing my post, I thought not everyone has a bank holiday weekend this weekend - oops. You sound like you love your current work schedule. After the long Easter weekend, I thought how lovely it would be to have a 4 day weekend all the time. I currently work 9 days out of 14 and would love to reduce that to 6 but as a compromise, I'm looking to lower the amount of work I do on working days and maybe that will help my stress levels Grin

Liquidrice - congratulations on your new baby!! I remember you as purple.

EssentialHummus · 05/05/2019 09:15

Congrats liquid Flowers. Sending coffee, it feels like yesterday with DD.

liquidice · 05/05/2019 10:41

@Clutterfreeintraining thank you! Did you have a different name before?

@EssentialHummus thank you 😊

BigChocFrenzy · 05/05/2019 12:25

Congratulations, liquid 💐
I remember you, of course

At this stage, just take care of yourself, try to have nourishing meals, then when you are ready, you can work on good habits like sugar and stopping snacking
I suggest waiting until 3 months, before you start with 1000 FDs - and before you start weighing !

OP posts:
Clutterfreeintraining · 05/05/2019 14:10

Liquid - I was possibly hiccup when I was posting before.

EssentialHummus · 06/05/2019 07:47

Good morning, checking in for a damage limitation Bank Holiday FD. Anyone else?

Clutterfreeintraining · 06/05/2019 08:31

Yep, me too!
I've got my meals planned for me and ds which is definitely a good start Grin so just have to stick to it.

Good luck essential Smile

Ithinkyourewonderful · 06/05/2019 09:21

Good morning all. Hope the weekend B2b went well bigChoc. Welcome back Clutter - you got this! Well done others on SVs or maintaining, which is pretty great too!

After last week, when I was down to 61 kg, I seem to have put on weight! I am up to 61.8kg for the last three days! NFDs but I have been eating well and no junk/snacking. I probably have had more starchy carbs that I should and a couple of glasses of wine. I think my period is due any day, so could it be related to that? Feeling a little deflated, but I guess I just keep going. Confused

BigChoc, are all alcoholic drinks to be avoided or are some 'better' than others for avoiding going out of ketosis?

Miffytastic · 06/05/2019 09:47

Hello I did 5:2 a few years ago on here first time it worked well for me, second time (!) I struggled to lose and gave up

Have recently got into doing Fast 800, and finding I’m on a 2:5 pattern with it- ie 5 days at 800 and 2 normal. At least 12 hr TRE
Anyone else doing this sort of approach ? I am not doing v well with macros as I’m vegan so looking for support in that aspect too but not sure if I fit the WOE properly for this group/board?

teta · 06/05/2019 10:03

Miffy I’m doing the same. I’m still trying to follow the low carb idea but I’m drinking wine at the weekend as well as trying to stick to my Tdee.
The only problem with wine is that I forgot not to eat after dinner last night so picked on some crispy roast lamb and some raspberries with a spoon of cream. And have consequently put in a pound since Saturday.
I’m sure it will be off tomorrow though.

Ithinkyourewonderful · 06/05/2019 10:12

Miffy that approach is new to me ... out of interest why are you doing it that way? Do you find it easier? Or more effective for weightloss? Interested also that you are vegan! I am trying to cut WAY back on meat - what kinds of meals do you eat to fill you up??

Miffytastic · 06/05/2019 10:57

wonderful
Fast800 is Michael Moseley’s latest book. Stage 1 is 800 cals/day, with TRE of 12:12 for 2-12 weeks. To do this for as long as you can stand for rapid weight loss.
Followed by stage 2 of 800 cal for a few days a week with TRE of 10hrs (10:14)