Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
chatongris · 24/12/2019 13:11

In real life my experience is that people are much less stereotyped in their politics.

I work with a group of people who vote in different ways - we share opinions on some aspects of politics (Brexit, inevitably, as we all work in manufacturing) and we disagree on others (because we are at different point on the right/left spectrum). Even those of us who are broadly on the left disagree strongly on some points.

On line this sort of discussion is harder because there is less trust and less willingness to look for areas where we can find agreement, and more focus on "winning the argument" at any cost.

In the real world my experience is that very few people are interested in "identity politics" and that this is largely a (social) media/academic politics phenomenon. In the real world people have points of view that are much less easily categorised.

chatongris · 24/12/2019 13:19

I think the trans debate was deliberately provoked to set natural allies fighting against each other. Left against left, gay against gay, feminist against feminist.

I'm not sure that it was "provoked" but it's certainly being exploited. The agenda on both sides of the divide is IMO profoundly anti-women.

thecatfromjapan · 24/12/2019 13:44

Just reporting back that shipping was fine! Yay!

(Though we are going to have to get some presents after Christmas ...)

thecatfromjapan · 24/12/2019 13:57

Shopping was fine ...

howabout · 24/12/2019 14:25

Scratching my head to come up with concrete examples of political competence from Sir Keir or Jess? Sir Keir wasn't known to me before he became shadow Brexit secretary and that hasn't ended well (I do know he was good at being a lawyer but that is not the same as being a politician). Vaguely remember Jess and Wes Streeting working together in Select Committee and him being the more impressive of the 2. AFAIK she has never been on the Front Bench? Hesitate to say the fabled "honest question"?

Torchlightt · 24/12/2019 14:33

Having thought about the Trans issue, Tanith, it would take a lobotomy to make me believe what the trans activists are saying. Maybe some right wing people know about basic biology too?

BigChocFrenzy · 24/12/2019 14:37

None of the Corbyn clique have done done anything very useful
and they will be as toxic as he was

So Labour will be shooting themselves in the arse - with consequent brain damage - if they choose another leader from the hard left

Tories can get elected with a leader who uses racist & homophobic language,
but Labour can only get elected by moving towards the centre

chomalungma · 24/12/2019 14:37

it would take a lobotomy to make me believe what the trans activists are saying. Maybe some right wing people know about basic biology too

Maybe things are more complicated than simple twitter soundbites?

But hey, no one wants complex discussions and to listen to both sides. People just have binary thoughts about trans people and know very little about the realities of trans lives and don't want to listen to the trans community.

7Days · 24/12/2019 15:26

That's a very dismissive view, chomulunga

Ultimately, the clash in this instance is about reality.

chatongris · 24/12/2019 15:34

It's not just about "reality" though, is it? And even biology is rarely black and white.

I'm on your side of the argument but I have no interest in standing with people who will not accommodate any nuance, ever.

pointythings · 24/12/2019 15:41

chatongris I agree. I number trans people among my friends and it really isn't a simple black and white thing. How could it be, when it's about people?

pointythings · 24/12/2019 15:44

Also DG thank you so much for that link! Can't believe what's available and for such reasonable prices. I see many slow cooked delicious things in our family's future.

chomalungma · 24/12/2019 15:57

That's a very dismissive view

It seems that nowadays, debates and discussions come down to Twitter soundbites of 255 characters, headlines, stories without context, misinformation, viral stories that are more complex when you look into them and complicated discussions.

Things are rarely black and white.

Yet people seem to be 'for or against' certain views and are divided thus.

That goes for many current topics.

DGRossetti · 24/12/2019 15:59

Squirrel meat: has a slightly nutty flavour Grin

I think a 2020 resolution may be to try a new meat every month. I guess it's a tiny bit childish, but the more I hear people droning on about veganism, the more I want to try. I think I had a similar reaction in the 80s when "Meat is Murder" was the high point of Morriseys philosophy.

DGRossetti · 24/12/2019 16:02

It seems that nowadays, debates and discussions come down to Twitter soundbites of 255 characters, headlines, stories without context, misinformation, viral stories that are more complex when you look into them and complicated discussions.

How does that differ from the bulk of history when written communication was highly expensive and rarely wasted on what people of the day regarded as trivia ?

HateIsNotGood · 24/12/2019 16:06

It does seem that the majority here on the Brexit Board, and all it's threads therein, are relaxing their own 'red lines' enough so that they can start to absorb and assess their 'opposites' perspectivres more.

I'm a flip-flop Ref, floating GE voter. I weighed things up each and every vote between and will continue to do so.

Whilst I do comprehend and understand most of the views that are against the UK leaving the EU, my assessment was, and still is, that it is best that the UK extracates itself from the EU.

In respect of all those that disagree with me, I promise that I will hold my duly elected Govt to account in all the decisions it makes on my behalf. That whilst it is possible that it can all go 'tits up' I don't think it will. I completely own my decision.

chomalungma · 24/12/2019 16:08

ow does that differ from the bulk of history when written communication was highly expensive and rarely wasted on what people of the day regarded as trivia

In the bulk of history, I guess people didn't know much about the wider world.

Nowadays, it's so easy to discuss things, but it seems that our attention span has become limited as there is so much going on. Information overload.

We are also far more likely to end up in echo chambers and social filters confirming and reinforcing our own views.

DGRossetti · 24/12/2019 16:12

In the bulk of history, I guess people didn't know much about the wider world.

Not like now, when a sizeable number believe the moon landings were hoaxed ... Grin

chomalungma · 24/12/2019 16:17

Not like now, when a sizeable number believe the moon landings were hoaxed

Can you imagine Twitter if it had been around during the moon landings?

DGRossetti · 24/12/2019 16:28

Can you imagine Twitter if it had been around during the moon landings?

Grin

There is a certain amusement to be gained from people using a technology which is far far more advanced from that needed to undertake the moon landings to suggest the moon landings never happened.

TheGhostOfEpicPast · 24/12/2019 17:34

In the spirit of good tidings and crossing the barricades, I would like to wish you all a very Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year, I hope 2020, brings you everything you could wish for, good health and plenty of love and joy.

🎄🎄🎄🍷

Epic.

chomalungma · 24/12/2019 17:37

We'll be playing football next and singing carols Grin

TheGhostOfEpicPast · 24/12/2019 17:39

“We'll be playing football next and singing carols grin”

⚽️ 🎶 🤗 😉🎄

squid4 · 24/12/2019 17:52

I’m still reading, thanks for Christmas messages

CrissmussMockers · 24/12/2019 17:57

"Meat is Murder"

Chrstmas Turkey is Justifiable Homicide.