Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
Torchlightt · 24/12/2019 18:11

Actually, Chomalunga, I've done a lot of reading around the trans issue.
One of the things I've learned from that is that the trans community are being listened to and accommodated to an extraordinary degree.

derxa · 24/12/2019 18:14

Happy Christmas and a Guid New Year to all!!
DGR Glad to hear you support the livestock farmers although I do a feel a little twinge when my lambs go through the ring at market.

chomalungma · 24/12/2019 18:16

it would take a lobotomy to make me believe what the trans activists are saying

And then you come up with stuff like that.

Torchlightt · 24/12/2019 18:21

Chom - as you're choosing not to say what the complexities of the trans debate that I don't understand are, or why you don't believe that the trans community are being listened to (I find that statement extraordinary), it's impossible for me to engage in a meaningful discussion with you.

ChrismArseDarkly · 24/12/2019 18:22

I played truce football with Cendrillon back before the election. They dived and got me sent off, not falling for that again, never trust a Tory. Merry Christmas to everyone else though! Cheers Wine

TiddleTaddleTat · 24/12/2019 18:25

"Tories can get elected with a leader who uses racist & homophobic language,
but Labour can only get elected by moving towards the centre^"
^
I disagree. I believe that the Tories were elected because the leader used racist and homophobic language.
And I disagree that Labour should move towards the 'Centre'. What are the principles of the 'centre' and what is its logic if it's only defining feature is being somewhere between a very right wing government and a left wing opposition?
Doesn't sound very inspiring to me.

DGRossetti · 24/12/2019 18:44

Christmas Turkey is Justifiable Homicide.

Hmm

generally turkey is bland as fuck. More so since it's sold by weight.

If you are going to have a bland bird for Christmas, may as well just have a chicken and save the pantomime around ordering a turkey etc etc.

One day, I'll persuade DW to have goose for Xmas. But not this year Grin.

Anyway, Merry Christmas one and all. And no matter where or who you are, best wishes for 2020.

ChrismArseDarkly · 24/12/2019 18:49

Even Boris Rossetti?

Xenia · 24/12/2019 18:55

The Tories just hit the nail on the head with having good policies on most issues and they won. They are just the best of the bunch on most issues - the economy and others issues too - eg Labour wants self ID wehreas Mrs May backtrakced on that and I believe BJ will keep our current gender change laws which are pretty advanced already.

Labour has made assumptions about what most people want and believe and what issues are most important to them and got it utterly wrong, thankfully. I want the Tories in power for 10 years so I hope Labour continues to live in its bubble where it thinks everyone is convinced of its arguments and it remains of the left and that way we can ensure the Tories win in 5 years' time.

However on basic issues such as our existing equality laws and gay marriage (and the Tories are bringing in civil partnerships by the way for non gay couples too) there is not a whole lot of difference between the two parties. Both are not against abortion. We are not like the US really in some of those ways.

HateIsNotGood · 24/12/2019 19:00

My personal preference is for a day of breakfasting, interspersed with twiglets (originals,) chocolates and cocktails (Pisco Sours) wearing the PJs and Perfume I've been given. Thankfully, it looks like that's exactly what it will be.

Poor me - Lucky me
xxx

ContinuityError · 24/12/2019 19:04

generally turkey is bland as fuck. More so since it's sold by weight.

Go for a small turkey - more likely to be a hen and juicier / tastier (apparently).

Much as I like goose, I find it a bit disappointing as it always seems to be mostly cavity. I just go for a big chicken these days.

CrissmussMockers · 24/12/2019 19:15

Turkey is bland as fuck

Turkeys would prefer you not to use language like that as it embarrasses them. Bred so fat (and taste-free) they are physically incapable of breeding. Mr Matthews has to use a (ssssh) turkey baster.

pointythings · 24/12/2019 19:37

We're not having turkey, we're having grilled duck breasts. And a three cheese, spinach and pine nut wellington for my vegi DD1. And all the trimmings. And we aren't having it at lunchtime, we're having it as an evening meal.

MarshaBradyo · 24/12/2019 19:52

We’ve stopped with turkey too and going for rare roast beef.

chomalungma · 24/12/2019 20:01

Just me and DS. He'd go for pizza but we are settling on beef.

RedToothBrush · 24/12/2019 20:38

We are having pizza. No really we are.

OP posts:
Peregrina · 24/12/2019 20:43

I believe that the Tories were elected because the leader used racist and homophobic language.

Sadly, I would agree.

DGRossetti · 24/12/2019 20:50

Even Boris Rossetti?

Yes - one and all. What it says.

Tanith · 24/12/2019 21:05

“ I think a 2020 resolution may be to try a new meat every month.”

I have solemnly promised DD(10) that I will not cook her anything cute and fluffy 🙄
I suppose that reprieves the squirrels...

Tanith · 24/12/2019 21:08

Xenia, I struggle to recall any of the Tory policies. Their entire campaign seemed to consist of “Get Brexit Done” and “But Corbyn...”

HateIsNotGood · 24/12/2019 21:09

A good choice RTB - I think DS will be having the same - whilst I'll be sticking to my preferred menu. Thankfully, we're a household that recognizes, accepts and respects the differences we have, yet realizes our similarities too.

Probably easy because there's only us 2 - reading most threads on MN, many don't have the same circumstantial luxury that ds and I have, the angst that so many seem to endure is beyond my limitations of conditions for eating a meal.

Food is required all year after all - not just for one day.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 24/12/2019 21:10

We're having turkey here. Dd9 also demanded a gammon and a beef but I told her to sling her hook.

Merry Christmas/Happy Hanukah to you all.

PeninsulaPanic · 24/12/2019 21:55

Tanith don't forget Boris's other GE 2019 smash hit - "No More Dither 'n' Delay (feat. MC Classic Dom)" 🎶

derxa · 24/12/2019 21:59

Dd9 also demanded a gammon and a beef but I told her to sling her hook. Grin

RedToothBrush · 24/12/2019 22:01

HateIsNotGood, DS is five and doesn't like roast anyway. We said to friends we were having pizza and they were welcome to join us. They thought we were winding them up at first, but eventually got the message we weren't. So there are 7 of us now. We are having Christmas themed toppings.

We are having a full on Christmas Dinner later in the week with other friends though, but that will suit DS who gets his perfect Christmas day meal.

I'm not one for rituals and traditions with Christmas Dinner. I do have plenty of Christmas related things I do every year but don't think food is the thing to do it over. Too stressful.

OP posts: