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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

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MarmotMorning · 21/12/2019 17:54

Thanks Red, that's pretty much the most insightful thing I've read since the election.

Alsohuman · 21/12/2019 17:54

Pmk 🎄

Stinkyeddie · 21/12/2019 17:55

Spot on bcf

lonelyplanetmum · 21/12/2019 18:00

Also this is a photo of an ERG meeting with new recruits...doesn't look that weighty to me.

twitter.com/stevebakerhw/status/1207013350938423296?s=21

I still think there's a chance of (B)rino- it's just the identity of the inner circle of advisers who make me think otherwise.

Peregrina · 21/12/2019 18:23

I am not sure that there will be Brino - I just see a slow decline. I hope that Johnson's fundamental dishonesty, which permeates the remnant of the Tory part will be their undoing.

As for the tripe about unleashing Britain's potential - it won't happen unless there is some pump priming i.e. investment in education and physical capital and that is not what the Tories have stood for.

Peregrina · 21/12/2019 18:35

Lest it be missed on the last thread, CrunchyCarrot highlighted the sell off of the UK Defence company Cobham to Advent International, a US private equity company.

I wonder how many Tory voters thought Johnson would shaft them quite so quickly. So what will we see? UK plants closed down as the work moves to the USA?

TheElementsSong · 21/12/2019 18:44

PMK with a festive animal

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
DGRossetti · 21/12/2019 18:45

As for the tripe about unleashing Britain's potential - it won't happen unless there is some pump priming i.e. investment in education and physical capital and that is not what the Tories have stood for.

I think the plan is to ship in the expertise and skills, use them, and kick them out when they are of no use, or start agitating for "rights". A disenfranchised workforce that can jolly pay their taxes and see fuck all in return. Note how hard it is to become a citizen these days - even if you marry one.

CrissmussMockers · 21/12/2019 18:48

Cobham looking like BJ's Westland. The asset strippers will flog it on to whoever offers the most. Selling England By The Pound.

And post Jan 31 will be the phase when everyone will get Brexit dung.

(Whadoyoumean, you mis-heard?)

DGRossetti · 21/12/2019 18:49

So what will we see? UK plants closed down as the work moves to the USA?

SOP is to acquire rights and patents. Then you can manufacture wherever it's cheapest.

I'm thinking Trump has as much concern for the average American as Boris does for the average Brit.

Keep an eye out for "Make England Great Again" which does boil down to "MEGA" if you squint hard enough.

Tanith · 21/12/2019 19:45

"Apparently he has said Officals must drop the Term 'Brexit' After January 31."

Perhaps this is what he really meant by "Get Brexit Done".

ContinuityError · 21/12/2019 19:53

Lest it be missed on the last thread, CrunchyCarrot highlighted the sell off of the UK Defence company Cobham to Advent International, a US private equity company

The Brexit effect on Sterling has made UK companies attractive to asset strip buy out.

NatashaGurdin · 21/12/2019 20:20

Going back to ID cards as on the previous thread, I've often wondered if our NHS number, which is presumably unique and issued to us when we are born (or soon after) or become a British citizen could be utilised to form the basis of an ID card system? Not to link the health side, just to link the number to the person it relates to as per their birth certificate/naturalisation details etc?

It seems that using an existing database that all citizens are currently on might save some costs?

(These are my cats Fred & George, posing in the right order for once).

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
Peregrina · 21/12/2019 20:37

The original NHS numbers were taken from the war time identity cards. I know that NHS numbers have now changed.

ListeningQuietly · 21/12/2019 20:54

Dusty says hello
the jumper belongs to his slave LeClerc / 54321

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
ChrismArseDarkly · 21/12/2019 20:54

Surprised Johnson didn't say "a bigly creative and dynamic"
Xmas Grin

AuldAlliance · 21/12/2019 21:00

Hi Dusty and master.

bellinisurge · 21/12/2019 21:01

A "What now!" Pmk.

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism
Songsofexperience · 21/12/2019 21:05

If consumer standards are lowered or scrapped, how will we be able to spot these:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-50873819

NatashaGurdin · 21/12/2019 21:10

@Peregrina, I don't know what the original numbers looked like, were they the same as the current ones? I was thinking of the number that appears on every prescription you get filled or every letter you get from a hospital? It just seems that using an existing database that every British citizen is already on might save some money in the process and I wondered what others thought.

Oakenbeach · 21/12/2019 21:11

Thank you @RedToothBrush , I think your analysis is spot on.

I have thought for a while that social liberals were becoming more authoritarian and superior, driving a wedge between those who are more socially conservative, with their derision and disdain creating a chasm between them rather than building bridges.

It is the LDs who have most to reflect on. They had a gaping hole in the centre of British politics, unseen since at least the early 80s, and they well
and truly blew it. Rather than building bridges, they burnt them with their “revoke” policy (^which many of them still seem in denial
-about. Ed Davey claimed again the other day that people didn’t understand. Broadly I think they did, but they didn’t like it as it arrogantly dismissed over half the population’s opinions as unworthy of being honoured.^). And then they take an uncompromising position on trans issues, refusing to countenance any dissent or real debate, despite this being too much for many social liberals, let alone social conservatives. Although they whinged and whined about the unfairness of their “unliberal undemocrats” nickname, it’s not hard to see why they got it!

Peregrina · 21/12/2019 21:38

No, the original wartime Identity Card/NHS numbers were alpha numeric.
I don't know when the new numbers came in - certainly no one ever wrote to tell us that they were changing. You used also to be sent an NHS card. Just digging mine out now from the drawer, it has your name address and date of birth on, so could effectively serve as a sort of ID card, except that there is no photo or signature. For a reason unknown to me, this particular card was issued in October 1990 - which wasn't when I moved house, or changed Doctor so I am baffled as to why it was issued then.

The back contains information, the first part of which tells you to take this to your doctor so that they know you are entitled to NHS treatment.

Peregrina · 21/12/2019 21:51

There weren't any Liberal Democrats in the early 80s. They joined up with the SDP in 1988. The SDP who were a splinter group from Labour. Maybe if Labour had listened back then as to why some of its members wanted to leave the party, they might not have come to the situation they are in now.

However, one of my focuses now is trying to make moderate Tory voters aware that the party they still support is an extreme right wing party which has thrown out the moderate members.

HateIsNotGood · 21/12/2019 22:11

I'm actually not against ID Cards - and haven't been for about 20 odd years since I realized their value as a form of, quite simply, photo ID.

I also only became aware of NHS Numbers during the past 20 years too, when each time I moved, and therefore GP Practices, both ds and I would be issued with new cards detailing the GP and practice.

NI Numbers - back in the day when you were sent an NI Card with your number on when you left school I was aware that the first two letters indicated your age (or maybe the year of issue) which was important to me as the existing Employment Regs (1978) prevented
15 year old me from working 12 hr rotating day/night shifts - thankfully we weren't all database linked up back then so it only took a couple of fibs and I had 18 months of a decently paid job (as even cleaning jobs were back then) and left after promotions and pay increases before I was even old enough to work there.

The format of NI Numbers appear not to have changed, I think DS was sent one as a child, but I don't have that but get his NI Number from his DLA and PIP Awards. It is a priority of mine - obtaining a separate notification of his NI#.

Either way, NI or NHS#, would both be a good basis for obtaining an ID Card (should they be finally agreed on in the UK).

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 22:15

A friend and I were talking last night. They said they had done the electoral calculas thing and 'to their horror' (joking) had come out left of centre. They have always been regarded as our 'right wing' friend in our group (they aren't and I'm unsurprised they are left of centre).

We then talked about our LD friend and how we'd been frustrated by them. LD friend has regularly abused right wing friend for their political opinions. The LD has become increasingly authoritarian and intolerant and Black and white in thinking.

I've been making the point for over two years now about the LDs failing to understand liberal democracy. There was an epic example on MN a while back too.

But its not just them. We have Ash Sakar describing extreme neoliberalism as communism. And we have Labour forgetting the history of unions and their purpose for the working class. We have feminists who speak for men but won't uphold the rights and dignity of women.

It's a mess.

Bottom line: If you don't stand up for the core tenants of these ideals, then why should anyone believe in these parties and their ideas?

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