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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

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BigChocFrenzy · 03/01/2020 13:34

Johnson is bone idle, but when he does decide to have a play at doing something, he has a record of disastrous bungling

e.g. wasted money on bridges and water cannon in London
more wasted years for Nazanin in an Iraqi jail.

CustardT · 03/01/2020 13:38

My 19 year old son applied for the job!

I told him about it and he said he’d already applied :)

malylis · 03/01/2020 13:45

Oooh who could apply from MN?

Claig? Smallfox? Surferjet?

yolofish · 03/01/2020 13:45

Dont think I'd be happy CustardT sounds more like slave labour and volunteering for workplace bullying than a job...

CustardT · 03/01/2020 14:00

Who knows. Obv very unlikely to get the job. But if he did get it it would be an experience.

He always wanted to be a politician till he did his Y10 work experience week in Boris’s Houses of Parliament office. That totally put him off....

Mockers2020Vision · 03/01/2020 14:19

On the face of it, DC is a sort of Neoplatonist who thinks the answers to big questions are found not through an exhaustive evauation of the evidence measured against objective standards but by a few really clever (self-appointed as such) people thinking about the problem amongst themselves.

The failures of UK govt in recent years can be put down to straightforward bad decisions made by polictos in a hurry seeking to leave behind a legacy they can point to as their acheivement. The common good don't come into it.

DC's interest in 'chaotic systems' sounds like the usual flawed thinking about Economics being predictive like Physics when it is only ever like ecosystems in Biology, you don't ever know the effect of what you do until you do it and observe the consequences.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/01/2020 14:25

" a few really clever (self-appointed as such) people thinking about the problem amongst themselves"

He's not against any "mc / rich elite" he demonised in the ref and in the GE runup

He just wants to be their leader (behind the scenes)

Mockers2020Vision · 03/01/2020 14:29

You begin to suspect that, like Gove, DC had the shit kicked out of him at school.

derxa · 03/01/2020 14:29

DC's interest in 'chaotic systems' sounds like the usual flawed thinking about Economics being predictive like Physics when it is only ever like ecosystems in Biology, you don't ever know the effect of what you do until you do it and observe the consequences. That is a very good point. Despite this people on here seem to treat economics precisely the same as DC. Predicting all sorts due to Brexit/ economic policies etc. Whereas it is all much less clear cut. Economics is an art not a science.

Xenia · 03/01/2020 14:31

Cummings has done extremely well and anything that helped obtain a Tory victory and kept us from Corbyn was very good in my book.

I hope he keeps it up.

Mockers2020Vision · 03/01/2020 14:34

Jeremy Corbyn deserves the credit for saving us from Jeremy Corbyn by being such an 'effective' leader.

malylis · 03/01/2020 14:43

Economics is a social science, where some levels if data can be used to make fairly accurate predictions.

Many of the economic predictions regarding a leave vote have actually come true, but then we don't like to admit that here.

CrunchyCarrot · 03/01/2020 15:22

Let's also just spare some thoughts today also for Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe and her husband, daughter and parents.

Their situation is tragic and wasn't helped one iota by a certain now-PM.

Re Cummings - will all those 'weirdos' and out-of-the-box thinkers he wants actually be able to work together?

Cyprus overrides the law to get Israeli gas deal through

Aha so that was what was going on re the rape charge. What does one young girl's life matter in the face of a big deal like that? It's so, so depressing.

Xenia · 03/01/2020 15:24

Doesn't matter if they don't work together as if they aren't they will be sacked. They know the score when they are taken on.

Alsohuman · 03/01/2020 15:26

I wish things were as simple in my world as they are in yours Xenia.

mrslaughan · 03/01/2020 15:29

@Xenia -you can't contract out of the law...... more likely they will get fired/moved on/turfed out - and the government aka us - will have to pay a settlement......

Such a revolting way to approach employing people - all the pressure on the employee to make it work and not on the employer - who has responsibilities and a duty .......

DGRossetti · 03/01/2020 16:07

seems the UK wasn't told about the US actions earlier ... meaning any chance to keep an eye on persons of interest was lost. Let's hope there aren't too many people under the radar now ...

DGRossetti · 03/01/2020 16:10

Xenia -you can't contract out of the law...... more likely they will get fired/moved on/turfed out - and the government aka us - will have to pay a settlement......

You can rewrite the law though - especially with a whopping majority.
Remember how the "not unlawful" workfare scheme victims had their rights to compensation removed by the Tories when the courts decided it was unlawful after all ?

yolofish · 03/01/2020 17:22

For a lawyer xenia you seem pretty cavalier about the law...

BigChocFrenzy · 03/01/2020 17:51

xenia with her legal expertise is probably more realistic / cynical about the power of the law to protect people - especially those without deep pockets - from govt

and any law can be changed by the HoC, so long as it doesn't infringe international law

DGRossetti · 03/01/2020 18:02

and any law can be changed by the HoC, so long as it doesn't infringe international law

What is "international law" ? Certainly nothing to do with the UN, or the US, UK and Israel would have been in trouble a long time ago.

Treaties ? They are only as good as the means to enforce them.

If the HoC decided to go hell-for-leather and pass laws in defiance of treaties, there's very little to be done beyond stern words.

In the past, there was the threat/fact that the UK would look hypocritical and lose face on the world stage. But since we fell through the looking glass, that would be an easy sell to the home crowd as "making a stand" or somesuch rabble rousing rubbish.

How many treaties did Nazi Germany slowly break 1932-1939 ?

So I would humbly submit that the HoC can pass any law. We already know the Monarch will have "presigned" it anyway. And if any pesky courts decide to get involved ... well, the HoC can pass a law abolishing them too. It would be a one-sentence bill.

The courts of the UK are hereby abolished.

(Sign here Ma'am ...)

ListeningQuietly · 03/01/2020 18:42

Do it all on a Friday afternoon with only Chris Chope jumping up and down Grin

BigChocFrenzy · 03/01/2020 19:25

DG International law matters if it affects more powerful countries or trade blocs,
or their citizens in the UK
because they can apply effective sanctions

For the individual without any big battalions .... tough shit

RedToothBrush · 03/01/2020 21:16

International law doesn't apply in periods of international unrest or war.

The concept of an 'unlawful war' is one I find very bizarre. A war is precisely the consequence of the break down of rules.

The same goes for domestic law. Rights and laws are only good as long as people have the ability to enforce them.

A quick read of anything the secret barrister has said in the last couple of years or looking at May's home office and the Windrush Scandal should be a reminder of that.

One again the idea that the law will save us, is a naive one in the context of the break down of the pillars of liberal democracy and the emergence of greater authoritarian forces in politics.

Rights and the law only protect us, if those in power believe they are in their interest to support and enforce for the benefit of the population as a whole and for their own interests...

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DGRossetti · 03/01/2020 21:23

The concept of an 'unlawful war' is one I find very bizarre.

Laws are merely human inventions. They are not somehow innate or fundamental. A point people who like to parrot the moronic phrase about "criminals not deserving rights" would do very well to remember. (Although I accept that might necessitate their forgetting their address).

The current vogue is that wars of territorial expansion are "bad" and that "civilising the natives" isn't a reason for war anymore.

But fashions change. And worryingly can make a resurgence. I mean by all rights you'd have thought flares would never make a comeback. And yet ...

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