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Brexit

Westminstenders: Social Conservativism

951 replies

RedToothBrush · 21/12/2019 16:11

The post election autopsy is starting to show something up. Finally. Brexit is part of wider political issues and fractures. This isn't exactly rocket science but it's an inconvenient truth that has been ignored.

We have something of a conflict going on between economic conservatism and social conservatism.

The Tories as the party of business were economically conservative and put this ahead of other issues. "It's the economy stupid."

But as this has continued this has opened up social division and the gap between rich and poor has laid bare social issues.

This is where Labour and the LDs are now becoming something of a cropper. In Brexit they continued the idea that the economy was the most important this and in doing so has fuelled the idea that they don't care about social issues. They are perceived to be putting the interests of businesses as more important than those people.

Of course it's not as straightforward as this. To fund ways to stop social issues you need good economics.

Add to this the progressive movement which has become authoritarian and has lost sight of certain social issues in favour of identity politics and you start to have a real issue. One that the EU as an identity has become caught up in in this country. The wedge to drive in the cracks.

Issues haven't been tackled because identity is more important and was prioritised. And we've had scandals arising out of this.

Instead we've had the increasing demonisation of social conservativism and the idea that if you question certain things you are backward or bigoted as a means to silence people. And now we've had a massive backlash against that generalisation and lack of nuance. And not seeing what was happening and having a self awareness of how this read to more socially conservative types.

That's not to say there aren't massive issues in social conservatism which can be indeed racist, homophobic, sexist and yes very bigoted in nature. The trouble is that the failure to be able to tackle nuance which identity politics forced and a failure to understand that the pace of change needs to be set by public consensus rather than top down authoritarianism has lead us to where we are now.

Rights set up to protect certain groups have failed in practice even if they exist in law. And those who professed to stand for the interests of certain groups forgot the origins of rights.

Thus undermining the entire centre left project, which in some respects the EU embodies.

We now find ourselves in a divided and ruled scenario where those who should have benefitted most from rights can be exploited by an elite who have successfully seen an opportunity to step into the void that identity politics created.

And now the left and liberals have to wake up to this reality and come up with a solution to it.

There is a lot of uncomfortable and difficult decisions to be made here.

The solution to the culture war isn't to push back harder and to become more authoritarian in tone about the right of 'right and wrong'.

It's to address why identity politics caused the left and liberals to forget their origins and purpose and why they established certain ideals in the first place.

Meanwhile whilst they figure out just how they lost their way and were blinkered by their own self righteousness, everything that the centre left project established will be gradually unpicked. Or if Johnson can do it, without being challenged, at some considerable pace.

It comes down to remembering your roots and having a solid connection with the reality of people's lives rather than high minded idealism and a sense of superiority. This is what people saw regardless of the noble intent of Labour and the Lib Dems.

'Social conservatism' were dirty words. Now they are the reality of the present. Whether we like it or not.

Economic stability has become secondary to this desire for social conservatism.

Labour and the Lib Dems have to adapt to this and will have to offer something to those with more socially conservative views to move forward now. The alternative is a very long wait outside in the cold of politics.

Liberal democracy is about balancing needs. You have to identify needs and you have to understand how to balance them for liberal democracy to thrive. Failure to do the former means the latter fails.

And here we are.

2020 beckons.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New to all.

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chomalungma · 24/12/2019 10:44

When you look at 'identity' politics, I suspect there is a strong correlation with certain views.

"Given someone believes in 'something (insert view in here), what are the chances they voted (Insert Leave or Remain)"

DGRossetti · 24/12/2019 10:44

Having been side tracked by talk of meat Grin here's what I wanted to post, a timely article about peace and reconciliation, from the province.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/stories-50856271

Fiona Gallagher and Lee Lavis have good reason to hate each other - but have became close enough to regard each other as brother and sister. It's a friendship which they believe has much to teach others, writes the BBC's Hugh Levinson.

CrissmussMockers · 24/12/2019 10:46

Nandy was good on R4 Today this morning. She's Deputy Leader material. Starmer has the brains for leader, and she has the heart and soul for 2iC.

Shopping is a lost cause. Bloke in Lidl this moring wanted new potatoes at Christmas. (From where? Australia?)

thecatfromjapan · 24/12/2019 10:47

I suspect identity politics (or communitarian politics) will get worse, not better, as the route to a progressive Parliamentary politics is closed off (& I think it may well be closed of for 10+ years).

thecatfromjapan · 24/12/2019 10:48

Anyway.

That's a lovely post from yolofish - and lovely of Dusty to re-post it here.

May the season bring warmth and comfort to all , and the New Year bring energy and hope.

Tanith · 24/12/2019 11:06

I think the trans debate was deliberately provoked to set natural allies fighting against each other. Left against left, gay against gay, feminist against feminist.
The GRA proposals were introduced by the Conservatives. It’s been some time since the Conservatives said anything remotely like TWAW and, if you look back, they were very careful about how far they did go.
I suspect the same is happening in the US.

Left Feminists then felt disenfranchised and politically homeless.

This then enabled the Right to say to feminists “They’re not listening to you. They never really listened to you, did they? We understand and we will fight for you.”

Of course, some feminists will prefer to remain politically homeless and, with both Labour and the LibDems saying they are no longer welcome, they have little choice. There are also Right Feminists who remain so.
However, I have seen a lot of feminists decide to vote for right wing parties who would never have contemplated it a few years ago solely on the Women's Rights issues.

Comes back to that thing about listening to people that Nigel Farage did so well.

DuckWillow · 24/12/2019 11:09

I definitely think there can be discussion; both sides...I’ve posted on both the threads and there are excellent people who can post civilly with well reasoned and thought out arguments. I’ve actually learnt stuff I didn’t know from both sides of the debate...whether that be Leave/Remain or Conservative/Labour/others.

ContinuityError · 24/12/2019 11:16

Shopping is a lost cause. Bloke in Lidl this moring wanted new potatoes at Christmas.

Sainsbury’s has loose new potatoes in store just now - no idea where from though (website says grown in UK? Under poly tunnel?)

DustyDiamond · 24/12/2019 11:19

That's why I follow this thread 🦆
I rarely post, but I do read, and I follow various links etc posted here with interest

May the season bring warmth and comfort to all , and the New Year bring energy and hope.

🍷 to this

ChrismArseDarkly · 24/12/2019 11:29
Hmm
7Days · 24/12/2019 11:37

Going back a few posts about weird bedfellows when it comes to social issues.
Isn't that what we should be encouraging?
Somebody has distasteful views on topic A - but good on topic B.
To dismiss everything they do and say on the basis of what we disagree with is just indulging in cancel culture, polarisation, ghettoisation of thought.
It's an emotional reaction, rather than a pragmatic focus on solving an actual problem.
Brings us to where we are today.

7Days · 24/12/2019 11:38

Omg I'm pages behind. That's what comes of trying to make stuffing and talk politics at the same time!
Back to catch up

AutumnRose1 · 24/12/2019 11:52

7Days

"Going back a few posts about weird bedfellows when it comes to social issues.
Isn't that what we should be encouraging?
Somebody has distasteful views on topic A - but good on topic B."

this. If I waited for someone to come along who agreed with me on everything, I'd be waiting forever probably.

DGRossetti · 24/12/2019 11:57

Sainsbury’s has loose new potatoes in store just now - no idea where from though (website says grown in UK? Under poly tunnel?)

Hydroponics ? If you are prepared to stump up for the electricity.

ListeningQuietly · 24/12/2019 12:06

Sainsbury’s has loose new potatoes in store just now - no idea where from though (website says grown in UK? Under poly tunnel?)
Nitrogen Storage
It is how most of the fresh fruit and veg is stored now - cheaper than chilling and much cheaper than airfreight

then again I have baby potatoes in my clamp that will still be fresh for another two months (and were lifted in September)

howabout · 24/12/2019 12:08

7days Matthew Goodwin whole hour interview on exactly that.

DGRossetti · 24/12/2019 12:12

then again I have baby potatoes in my clamp that will still be fresh for another two months (and were lifted in September

It can be quite funny to casually breeze into a prepper forum, ask about clamps, and wait for the tumbleweed.

Now, about salsify ...

thecatfromjapan · 24/12/2019 12:15

We're doing our Christmas shopping - food and presents - today. 😂

All that canvassing etc. Played havoc with preparation.

Thoughts and prayers, folks.

FatFredsFriedEgg · 24/12/2019 12:21

Years ago we grew new potatoes for Christmas inside damp straw bales in an unheated greenhouse. We only did it the once but it produced a small crop of the cleanest potatoes you've ever seen.

ListeningQuietly · 24/12/2019 12:23

DGR
Clamps are much underrated and under used Xmas Grin
The only reason I do not bother to clamp my carrots is that they are frost hardy and I have well draining soil and enough space.

Better go pick the veg for Christmas Eve supper Smile
Leeks, carrots, kale, chad, parsnips, spuds and use some frozen squash

Tanith · 24/12/2019 12:25

“ If I waited for someone to come along who agreed with me on everything, I'd be waiting forever probably.”

To an extent. But when you’re giving your blessing to someone who agrees with you on one point, yet holds views abhorrent to you on several others, you have some hard thinking to do, surely?

thecatfromjapan · 24/12/2019 12:28

BMG poll in The Independent finds Keir Starmer most popular would-be Leader amongst working class Labour voters.

And Keir Starmer and Jess Philips most popular in Leave areas.

So ... it seems working class people are quite swayed by competence.

Amazing.

Who'd have guessed?

And all this against a background of Momentumites wimbling on about the need for groups to go amongst the working class and politically educate 'them'.

🤦‍♀️

I despair. I really do.

DGRossetti · 24/12/2019 12:28

Clamps are much underrated and under used

Grub huts Grin ...

AutumnRose1 · 24/12/2019 12:41

Tanith I think we've got one or two major disagreements and several agreements

not claiming to know a lot about him though. To some extent, I think that's good too. I had a very fixed idea in my head about him before but shook it off because I heard something that chimed with me in a major way.

RedToothBrush · 24/12/2019 12:52

My hope for 2020 is that with 'Brexit done' more talking to each other rather that at each other or over each other (hate, hate this in political shows).

Its possible but there are a lot of barriers to that.

Certainly Labour need to look at thus during their leadership election, though I fear it very much going the opposite way.

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