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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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prettybird · 02/09/2019 12:55

That WSJ editorial is shocking but not surprising Sad

It seems to think that it is a selling point that in return for dismantling our NHS, they should and will dismantle safeguards that were imposed on their banking sector after the 2008 financial crisis Confused

Certainly makes explicit who they think are the driving force behind a proposes future "vibrant trans-Atlantic trade in financial services" and who expect to benefit from it Hmm

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 12:57

Peter Walker @peterwalker99
No 10 source confirms cabinet meeting later today and says attempt by backbenchers to get control of Commons order paper as means to block no deal is seen as “expression of confidence in govt’s negotiating position”. Does this mean: if we lose expect an election?

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RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 12:58

Jessica elgot @jessicaelgot
Downing Street on mounting election rumours - "View is that tomorrow’s possible vote is an expression of confidence in Govt’s negotiating position to secure a deal and will be treated as such."

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BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 13:00

"paying more realistic price for American medical innovations"

That's the perpetual moan of the US pharmaceutical industry that the NHS, with its massive purchasing power, depresses prices for meds outside the captive US market which Big Pharma controls

Basically, they want the NHS and hence the rest of the world to pay the MUCH higher US prices for meds

That really would be the end of the NHS in practice, with the Tories being able to sell it off after it collapses

DarlingNikita · 02/09/2019 13:01

PMK. Thanks Red.

I have to get a new passport and am furious about the prospect of getting one without EU on it.

Horehound · 02/09/2019 13:01

Hi, sorry been completely out of what's going on for past 12 days as had a baby!

Can someone give me a quick rundown and also, what trap did JC fall in to?

Thanks

Cwenthryth · 02/09/2019 13:02

Did anybody else just watch Politics Live? It ended with Owen Jones ranting against BBC ‘self indulgence’ - literally being told the program was ending and he kept going, screen cut off with him mid sentence.

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 13:02

Lewis Goodall@lewis_goodall
Some saying Johnson will set election after 31st October. There's no way the Commons votes for that. Labour MPs' will defy a Corbyn whip if he tries to make them vote for it (why would he?) The only way an election gets 2/3s majority is if Johnson promises it before 31st.

I refer to comment upthread about Labour policy to rapidly become there must be a date for a GE set in law, and this must be pre ref....

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BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 13:03

Would they even claim that a VoNC with the replacement of BJ by Corbyn is an expression of their confidence in BJ ?

Well yes, that this confidence is rock-bottom ! Grin

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 13:03

They booked Owen Jones for politics live today???

That man alone could make many vote Tory

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averylongtimeago · 02/09/2019 13:06

The bbc Is reporting it now

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 13:06

Nicola Sturgeon @nicolasturgeon
As talk of a General Election mounts, I say ‘bring it on’...but it must be before Oct 31. MPs must not allow Johnson to game the date as a ploy to push through a no deal Brexit.

Laura Kuenssberg@bbclaurak
As I understand it govt can change it by proclamation - so they could name a date but then change it further down the line

Everyone pay attention to Laura's tweet here. It's important

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RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 13:08

Westminster Voting Intention (NI):

DUP: 29% (-7)
SF: 25% (-4)
ALL: 21% (+13)
UUP: 9% (-1)
SDLP: 8% (-4)
GRN: 1% (=)

Others: 7% (+3)

Via @LucidTalk, 9-12 Aug.
Changes w/ GE2017.

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Songsofexperience · 02/09/2019 13:09

Any legislation that could prevent them from a trick no deal ?

Songsofexperience · 02/09/2019 13:10

They have to prioritise preventing no deal...

tobee · 02/09/2019 13:10

Congratulations @Horehound Thanks

Cwenthryth · 02/09/2019 13:10

I know RTB, he doesn’t seem to do any of his causes any favours. I wonder what his ambitions are - future Labour PM?

tobee · 02/09/2019 13:11

Is it our first Westminsterenders baby? 👶 🍼 🍾

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 13:12

Am I confused, or is there a difference between what Corbyn & Starmer are saying:

I can understand why it is politically difficult to refuse a GE before Brexit, because Labour could stand on a manifesto of negotiating a soft Brexit and then having a PV,
i.e. give voters a chance at a GE to refuse No Deal.
Still very risky and unwise.

However, would Corbyn really support a GE after No Deal has happened, i.e. November, BJ's dream date?
What would be the point - other than giving BJ a thumping majority to do what the ERG wants for 5 years ?

The Graun Politics Live on Corbyn's answers:

"he would not say what he would do if the legislation failed,
or if Johnson tried to call a general election before the bill became law,
or if Johnson proposed an election before 31 October.

For an election to take place under the Fixed-Terms Parliaments Act, Labour would almost certainly have to vote in favour, or at least abstain.

In the past No 10 sources have hinted that Johnson might try to trigger a general election to take place after the UK leaves the EU on 31 October
– a proposal that Sir Keir Starmer, the shadow Brexit secretary, indicated yesterday Labour would find impossible to support.

But Labour would find it much harder to oppose any election scheduled for before 31 October."

tobee · 02/09/2019 13:13

Oh fuck that Laura K tweet doesn't look good! The government seem to be able to do anything with no checks

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 13:13

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Emergency Cabinet confirmed for 4.45pm today. No10 source now saying it's wrong for MPs to strip control of Parliament from the Govt "without the consent of the people". That is very much General Election talk. Boris preparing to go to the country.

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BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 13:15

Obvious - BJ is legally able to change the date and have the GE after No Deal has happened, so he will do it.

Is Corbyn really dim enough to trust BJ to keep his word ? Confused

tobee · 02/09/2019 13:15

It's also wrong for the government to strip control of parliament without consent of the people

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 13:16

Paul Brand @paulbranditv
⚠️THREE times I asked Conservative Party Chair James Cleverly (on behalf of all the broadcasters) if he categorically ruled out an election being called in the next two weeks.

THREE times, there came no reply.⚠️

James Cleverly also clear that Tory MPs who vote against the govt tomorrow face deselection for 'taking power from us and handing it to the opposition.' Those rebels may only have a couple of days left in the Commons if we really are headed for an election...that'll focus minds.

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RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 13:18

Thats the same James Cleverly who tweeted this on 28th June

James Cleverly MP @ jamescleverly
THERE IS NO DESELECTION MECHANISM IN THE @CONSERVATIVES PARTY

We have had these Leave EU stories amplified by the press for months and no Conservative MP has been deselected.

@DavidGauke is a great MP and a huge asset to our party.

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