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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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BigChocFrenzy · 03/09/2019 12:37

So if the vote fails today, we won't even see the Anti No Deal bill tomorrow

and if the vote is too tight, we should be v nervous about tomorrow, in case any of the rebels get nobbled by the Whips overnight
(we have this loooong file on you that your wife might be very interested in, Mr Spank)

OhYouBadBadKitten · 03/09/2019 12:39

So reading up thread I need to hang around Parliament til 9 tonight? (adjusts expectations of which train I'm getting back home)

BigChocFrenzy · 03/09/2019 12:41

Pour encourager les autres:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/09/03/brexit-latest-news-boris-johnson-no-deal-vote-general-election/

Boris Johnson could use 'nuclear option' of expelling Philip Hammond if he rebels in tonight’s crucial vote

yolofish · 03/09/2019 12:46

cba with emailing my MP - Damian Collins. I have done 3 times before, but each time he comes back with the strict party line and I really cant see the point. There's no way he wont get in again anyway. Combination of blue rosette and rabid Leaver country - which has always struck me as quite odd really.

NoWordForFluffy · 03/09/2019 12:49

That must be a Damien / Damian thing as Damien Moore does that to me too.

ExpletiveDelighted · 03/09/2019 12:51

Ha, mine's a Damian too.

prettybird · 03/09/2019 12:56

Echoes of The Omen Wink

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 13:02

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/3682564-Westminstenders-The-House-Is-On-Fire?watched=1
New thread.

I have uniform to go buy...

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 13:06

Sebastian Payne @SebastianePayne
Inside No.10, there seems to be delight at @PhilipHammondUK manoeuvres today. One insider describes "laughter at his hysterical meltdown" this morning - a reference to his punchy Today programme interview with @JustinOnWeb.

Another government insider accuses Philip Hammond of promoting the "conspiracy theory" that No10 could switch an election date after the dissolution of parliament, accusing him of not understanding "legal basics".

In response, a source close to the group of Tory MPs campaigning to stop a no deal Brexit says:

"Shutting down Parliament was once dismissed as a conspiracy theory - including by No10 - days before they did it."

OP posts:
icannotremember · 03/09/2019 13:06

As UK will still be in EU on the 14th October Boris the animal can go to Brussels and veto an extension to A50.

No, he can't.

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 13:07

Robert Colville @rcolville
Genuine question: will/should the Tories put someone up against Bercow at an election? Obviously rips up all convention, but then they could argue so has he...

OP posts:
CrunchyCarrot · 03/09/2019 13:12

Wishing you well cherin Flowers

My head is spinning today trying to keep up. Confused

TokyoSushi · 03/09/2019 13:19

Handy little guide for today, need to try to persuade DD(6) to watch Bake Off in the morning:

Lucy Plint
@lucyplint
·
13m
Here's what we're expecting in the Commons today:
1530: PM statement on G7
1630: Javid on Brexit preps
1730: Williamson on schools funding
1830: Speaker hears rebels' application for SO24 debate
If granted – debate can last 3 hrs or until 2200
So, key vote likely 2130/2200ish

thecatfromjapan · 03/09/2019 13:21

OhYouBadKitten

I'll be joining the protest tonight if it goes on after 8 (which it will!).

If you'd like to make an attempt to meet up, could you DM me?

I can't see how to private message on my phone & I've been away from MN so ling, I have no old DM emails I can utilise!!!

Anyway, I'm going to protest my heart out.
🙂

woman19 · 03/09/2019 13:47

Aliar De Pfiffel.

@joannaccherry
Boris Johnson secretly agreed to suspend parliament 2 weeks before denying it wd happen. Just 9 days ago No.10 strongly denied any intention to #prorogue parliament - but disclosure to Scottish court shows otherwise #Cherrycase #Brexit

BigChocFrenzy · 03/09/2019 14:15

"will/should the Tories put someone up against Bercow at an election? Obviously rips up all convention, but then they could argue so has he..."

There have been rumblings for at least a couple of years that some local Tories want to deselect Bercow, because they say - truthfully ! - that he stopped being a Tory some years ago.

Last report, a few weeks ago, was that they have been boosted by new Breexiter members and plan to do so.

However, Bercow - maybe because of the aggro with his local party - is apparently going to stand down as an MP at the next GE, anyway

Maybe it depends on how soon the next GE is and whether they can deselect him in time

That is why stopping No Deal before a GE is so important: we'll lose most of the Tory rebels and maybe Bercow too

  • the Rebel Alliance will probably be much less powerful in the new Parliament, even without the probably Tory working majority
cherin · 03/09/2019 14:21

Very loud protests here. One gang of brexiteers screams from the other side of the street, and remainers scream back “we politely disagree!”

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
cherin · 03/09/2019 14:31

This is a good one

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
OhYouBadBadKitten · 03/09/2019 14:53

That's awesome Cherin on my way!!!

Cat I've sent you a dm :)

OhYouBadBadKitten · 03/09/2019 14:54

bugger. Just saw the timings.
Will inform dh I'll be really late and well, work tomorrow will have to be muddled through.

AutumnCrow · 03/09/2019 15:00

I just saw the timings, too.

We've got a local Stop The Coup gathering tonight apparently at 6.30pm but I want to watch the debate live on TV.

Take care, @OhYouBadBadKitten, and please be careful.

Random18 · 03/09/2019 15:09

Greg Clark to vote against govt.

It's really a sinking ship isn't it. Hes getting it from all sides.

You reap what you sow.

I felt sad for TM at end. Although she played her cards badly. There was no malice in it though.

This excuse for a human- can't wait.

LonelyTiredandLow · 03/09/2019 15:59

Phillip Lee has defected to Lib Dems (Bracknell)

AutumnCrow · 03/09/2019 16:02

Which means Johnson has no majority.

He's ranting away, like a very poor sixth form debater.

sovielverloren · 03/09/2019 16:16

Am way behind on thread, but just a couple of quick pics of protests this afternoon. Atmosphere around Parliament Square was very different from yesterday late afternoon and a lot of pro Brexit support in the mix. Good luck to anyone there/on their way.

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
Westminstenders: It's a trap!