Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
30
CrunchyCarrot · 02/09/2019 07:12

I had a bad night worrying g about something completely unrelated to Brexit

That sucks as they say, Bellini. Nothing worse than the wee small hours for worrying. I hope whatever it is that's bugging you will seem less insurmountable in the daylight. Flowers

HesterThrale · 02/09/2019 07:15

Retweeted by Sam Coates Sky:

Owen Bennett
@owenjbennett
A Tory MP opposed to no deal is suggesting mixed messages from the whips. Says they have not been threatened with deselection: “The whipping has been very light. They want to lose the vote... They aren't negotiating, they have no idea what to replace the backstop with.”

mobile.twitter.com/owenjbennett/status/1168271999963140096

wrongsideofhistorymyarse · 02/09/2019 07:16

Pmk

Sostenueto · 02/09/2019 07:19

Boris could still hang on even if some MPs cross the floor as Parliament will be closed for 5 weeks. Same goes if he ignores the vote against no deal.

bellinisurge · 02/09/2019 07:19

Thanks @CrunchyCarrot . That retweet is interesting @HesterThrale

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 07:28

The problem with deselecting Tory MPs who don't tie the line, is that as a tactic it's predicated upon any replacement becoming MP in their stead at the next election.

I wouldn't be so sure the "normal" rules would apply though ? We could see people abandoning the vote-by-rosette tendencies in significant numbers.

And if some deselected Tories were to stand as independents it could split the Tory/BXP vote enough to have interesting consequences.

Still very much everything to play for.

NoWordForFluffy · 02/09/2019 07:30

I agree with you, DGR.

I think any election will be a 'hold your nose and dive in' one. We could get some interesting results.

TheNumberfaker · 02/09/2019 07:32

Can the government amend legislation by adding a VoNC bit? Just wondering if Johnson would try that. Would then either prevent the legislation from passing or get the VoNC he wants to get an election...
As I’ve said before (not sure if on here) anti-no-dealers need to be primed and ready with an alternative PM.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 02/09/2019 07:33

PMK

Hoooo · 02/09/2019 07:33

Got a bit of a shitter of a week coming up so may not be around much but I’ll be lurking!

NoWordForFluffy · 02/09/2019 07:37

For all we know, the anti-no dealers DO have something prepared. They've stopped telling us what they're doing really (which is different from not doing anything). I think that there are plans well-afoot, but they're keeping their powder dry until necessary.

Trying to predict and second guess doesn't really help matters. So strap in, get ready for the ride!

DarkAtEndOfUK · 02/09/2019 07:41

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority.

All of Britain's problems stem from the Tory party's civil war. That and the mention of Sun Tzu is interesting. We're not at war. We didn't need to be at war. This is what Britain has done to itself in peacetime. Male ego-centric indeed.

chomalungma · 02/09/2019 07:49

Interesting comments this morning about getting Royal Assent of a bill before it becomes law.

Talk about it not getting assent even if any bill gets through Parliament if Parliament gets prorogued. I wouldn't put it past them.

IrenetheQuaint · 02/09/2019 07:58

I always thought that Boris/Cummings would want to trigger a people against parliament GE; but their approach is even more aggressive than I thought and IMO they're at risk of overreaching and alienating moderate Tories, whose votes they will still need to get a majority; not to mention moderate Tory MPs who haven't rebelled yet but are seriously concerned about no deal and prorogation.

I'm not sure Cummings has really grasped the difference between winning a battle (as the referendum was) and winning a war (ie getting to power, staying in power and delivering long-term change that isn't unpicked as soon as you're ousted).

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 07:58

The problem with deselecting Tory MPs who don't tie the line, is that as a tactic it's predicated upon any replacement becoming MP in their stead at the next election.

I wouldn't be so sure the "normal" rules would apply though ? We could see people abandoning the vote-by-rosette tendencies in significant numbers.

And if some deselected Tories were to stand as independents it could split the Tory/BXP vote enough to have interesting consequences.

I do agree with this.

Those MPs will have to raise the funds and have the support necessary to do this though.

I think there was stuff about the remain alliance which suggested that it was contacting some Tory MPs about their intentions with that view in mind.

I think it's worth making the point that Johnson’s and Cummings strategy is very high risk with nothing guaranteed but I think they view it as having nothing to lose.

It's also true that any strategy the opposition employ is also high risk too.

The deciding factor is liable to be PR and who, at the crucial moment, leads the way.

I think the achilles heel for remain is the lack of strong leadership. Whilst Johnson scores well on that. Indeed he scores relatively well on strong leadership amongst Remainers in comparison to Corbyn.

OP posts:
TokyoSushi · 02/09/2019 08:01

PMK, I suspect none of us are going to be doing much work this week.

QueenOfThorns · 02/09/2019 08:02

Once you start looking at all this as a ploy to trigger a GE, it all makes sense. I really hope that the anti no-dealers have a decent plan, but I’m expecting to be disappointed. Do you think it would help if I wrote to my (Shadow Cabinet) MP urging them not to fall into this trap?

BoreOfWhabylon · 02/09/2019 08:03

pmk

woman19 · 02/09/2019 08:04

tobee timetable at end of this article.
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-49543430

Thanks red thanks oybk
Lifted from twitter.
"Recap.
New PM. (appointed)
New Cabinet (appointed)
New policies from above resisted by MPs (elected)
Result, Parliament (elected) being suspended.
Gove refuses to say government would enact parliament laws.
MPs resistant to Gov policy threatened with immediate sacking/deselection"

Talk about it not getting assent even if any bill gets through Parliament if Parliament gets prorogued. I wouldn't put it past them

Oh dear, Brenda.........

What do those poor men do to each other in when young, private school?

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 08:04

Interesting comments this morning about getting Royal Assent of a bill before it becomes law.

Ultimately though, that really is just convention. We have no idea what a court presented with a case under a law that had not received Royal Assent would do.

Bear in mind, for a totalitarian coup to succeed, all arms of the state must be in the same hands. So the Executive, the Legislature (we're getting there) and the Judiciary. Remember the ENEMIES OF THE PEOPLE line of attack from 2016/2017 ?

Another thing done "by convention" is issuing instructions to the civil service. At what point would such instructions be checked for legality ? And more to the point, if found illegal, what happens ? We know in the case of the Home Office, "nothing" is what happens.

To add to a previous posters observation about laws: they're also only effective if there is a way of enforcing them. Otherwise they're really just wordy mission statements.

ARoomWithoutADoor · 02/09/2019 08:06

PMK. thanks, Red

God help us, is all I can say. The trap hinges are shining in the sun.

flouncyfanny · 02/09/2019 08:07

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Random18 · 02/09/2019 08:14

We don't often hear from the silent majority though.

It is them who decide elections though not those who shout the loudest.

Reasonable voices on both sides are often not heard.

But then there is the other question of who do the vote for Hmm

Cwenthryth · 02/09/2019 08:16

Placemarking to keep up with the usually astute and thought provoking observations on these threads, but I will contribute a little to say that Today have David Gauke (leader of the “Gaukward Squad” of Tory rebels) is on the 8.10 slot being interviewed right now.