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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 13:18

Wavering Tory rebel MPs should realise that BJ suspending Parliament makes any EU deal with his govt almost impossible:

the EU would never reward a govt that is taking such clear steps away from Western-type democracy and into popular authoritarianism

tobee · 02/09/2019 13:19

I see Johnson and Carrie have a rescue Jack Russell puppy arrived at Downing Street. Awww cute! Johnson and Carrie! They must have hearts of gold! Angry

Songsofexperience · 02/09/2019 13:23

I see Johnson and Carrie have a rescue Jack Russell puppy arrived at Downing Street. Awww cute! Johnson and Carrie! They must have hearts of gold! angry

Enough to make me a cat person (I'm severely allergic)

woman19 · 02/09/2019 13:27

it's wrong for MPs to strip control of Parliament from the Govt "without the consent of the people
The bath toys are sounding more like the Khmer Rouge every day.

TheElementsSong · 02/09/2019 13:29

Poor squirrel puppy.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 13:30

Twat alert

Tom Newton Dunn@tnewtondunn

Gavin Williamson tells #GMB the PM would be “right” to withdraw whip from Tory rebels who vote to block No Deal:

“Anyone who is voting against the Government is voting to undermine the Prime Minister’s negotiating hand, and the nation’s position”.

A photo I keep to cheer myself up about his twattery:^
(note the squaddies carefully not laughing)

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
SinisterBumFacedCat · 02/09/2019 13:33

I see Johnson and Carrie have a rescue Jack Russell puppy arrived at Downing Street. Awww cute! Johnson and Carrie! They must have hearts of gold!

I feel sorry for the poor cat already living at number 10.

howabout · 02/09/2019 13:39

Red of your list Justine Greening would lose her seat to the LibDems whether or not she stayed Tory. Therefore no incentive for them to gift her the seat and no incentive for her not to run as an Independent. Irony is that may be the one strategy which would save Putney for the Tories.

Few commentators this morning predicting election for 17 October which I tend to agree with.

bellinisurge · 02/09/2019 13:39

You don't bring a dog into a home lived in by cats without great care and thought taken for compatibility.
Hope the rats and mice come back as the cat goes elsewhere.
Jack Russells require a lot of care and training and, like all pedigrees, can have a lifetime of health issues- my in-laws have one .

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 02/09/2019 13:42

I see Johnson and Carrie have a rescue Jack Russell puppy arrived at Downing Street

I assumed it was meat for their Brexit stockpile...

Frankiestein402 · 02/09/2019 13:42

As Others See Us - Singapore - @bbcradio4 www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m00082cp

Excellent view from Singapore - clear exposition of why Singapore on Thames isn't an option (apart from size, basically the need for a vision and the type of strong leader that is culturally unacceptable to UK)

Saucery · 02/09/2019 13:44

I assume their flat caps and a Brexit-stash dripping order are also in the post.

MmeBufo · 02/09/2019 13:48

EU officials are considering whether to classify a No Deal #Brexit as a "major disaster" so that affected countries can request cash from the Solidarity Fund, usually reserved for floods, fires and earthquakes. (1)

twitter.com/adamfleming/status/1168500702915846147?s=21

flouncyfanny · 02/09/2019 13:51

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

QueenOfThorns · 02/09/2019 13:53

Anybody who decides to vote Tory because Boris Johnson has adopted a rescue puppy deserves everything they get under a no deal Brexit, in my opinion Angry

FMFL · 02/09/2019 13:54

I’m probably being dim, but is the general view that if BJ calls and wins a pre-31 Oct election, there is less chance of a no deal?

TokyoSushi · 02/09/2019 14:02

Sebastian Payne
@SebastianEPayne
·
1h
🚨 Cabinet meeting at 5pm today, Boris Johnson then addressing all Tory MPs in Downing Street garden at 6pm. Feels like something is afoot. 🚨

But can they just call an election though, don't they need a 2/3 majority to vote for it? Although Labour appear to be saying that they would vote for it? But then what happens with the proroguing? And what date would the election be? If it's beyond 31st October then we automatically no deal? But if it's before then is that a massive incentive to vote 'not Conservative?' Assuming a non-Conservative government's first action is to extend. But then what about the Brexit party, didn't they say something about putting a candidate in every constituency in the land or something? Would people really vote for them?

Just a couple of questions!

TokyoSushi · 02/09/2019 14:03

And what about the party conferences if we're in purdah because of an election campaign?

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 14:06

"if BJ calls and wins a pre-31 Oct election" then imo No Deal is a certainty

With a big majority, he can do as he likes.

It'll be interesting to see whether Lexiters on MN will be supporting the Tories in the GE, to do all they want to the country for 5 years Hmm

TheMShip · 02/09/2019 14:08

If tomorrow's vote to take control of the order paper away from the govt is officially made a confidence vote (what's the procedure there, anyone know?), then presumably if the govt loses, the 14 days for an alternative kicks in. Or is that only if there's an official VONC called by the leader of the opposition?

TokyoSushi · 02/09/2019 14:08

Tom Newton Dunn
@tnewtondunn
·
57m
Emergency Cabinet confirmed for 4.45pm today. No10 source now saying it's wrong for MPs to strip control of Parliament from the Govt "without the consent of the people". That is very much General Election talk. Boris preparing to go to the country.

Tom Newton Dunn
@tnewtondunn
·
9m
But the $1m question remains: will two thirds of MPs let him? Needs Labour votes, but it’s split. Corbyn circle fancy their chances, moderates don’t and Starmer anti-No Dealers want an A50 extension in place 1st. Some massive judgements will have to be made in the next 72 hours.

Yikes! I'll go away and do some work now!

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 14:10

Rescue puppy the day after it's announced no family reunion for child refugees. We treat dogs better than refugees.

This good:

Sean Jones QC @seanjonesqc
Just thinking this through:
1. PM boots out Grieve; Gauke; Stewart, etc and loses majority.
2. PM then says: "Right, I'm calling an election".
3. Other parties say "No thanks. read the FTPA First we legislate to compel you to ask for an extension"

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woman19 · 02/09/2019 14:10

This isn't brexit, but it sort of very much is.

Doctors can perform C-section if woman loses mental capacity, judge rules

Ruling comes despite woman, who has bipolar disorder, saying she does not want procedure

Imagine having a caesarian under duress.......

Woman diagnosed as bi polar is having a forced caesarean and did not have legal representation in the court which decided it.

Anticipatory orders and/or declarations are therefore sought to enable the lawful provision of such care and treatment as is clinically indicated, including emergency caesarean section, to [her] and her unborn child to ensure their health and safety and to minimise the risk of any significant and long-lasting harm

The woman was not represented by lawyers at the hearing. The judge, who also hears cases in the family division of the high court, said the urgency of the situation meant the application had been made at short notice and there had not been enough time for the woman to instruct lawyers or for lawyers to be instructed on her behalf

www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/02/doctors-permission-perform-caesarean-section-woman-mental-health

Very brexitty.

Sostenueto · 02/09/2019 14:11

If JC goes for a GE then he really is stupid!

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 14:12

Peston @peston
A problem for an @PhilipHammondUK or @DavidGauke who may embrace being kicked out of Tory party to run as an independent candidate in looming general election is they can’t brand themselves as “Independent Conservative” on ballot paper, Electoral Commission tells me. Unless...

that is they were given permission to create a new party called the “Independent Conservatives”, or something similar. But they might not get permission. And anyway there probably isn’t time for them to jump through all the hoops to do that, before the likely October election

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