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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 10:15

For all the fuss, BXP are an unknown force in a general election. But if they are going all out for no-deal, surely it's a gift to a Tory party that can then campaign for a deal, and win back their natural supporters who are never going to back no-deal ?

Or has no-deal support grown so much it's the only game in town ? Are no-dealers so numerous, so prevalent, that they eclipse all over views - dwarfing the 52/48 split from the referendum ?

If a General Election is effectively a second referendum, then we now know where the "no deal" option is, so why duplicate it ?

Or am I as thick as I feel at the moment ?

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 10:15

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Sir Nicholas Soames tells me he will vote against the Govt tonight, unless the PM (who he’s going to see now) can assure him a Brexit deal will be done. Boris therefore faces the uncomfortable prospect of deselecting Winston Churchill’s grandson.

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LonelyTiredandLow · 03/09/2019 10:17

Cherin I have had an inkling many 'preparations' have been done in a similar manner. If you don't see the issue you can't plan.
I think you should write a letter to the papers re your job (under a fake name) and explain how worried people should be about the standards issue. I have been worried about this for some time and to hear nothing has changed on it over 3 years is alarming.

Basil sorry re footy - huge stereotype I know.

frumpety · 03/09/2019 10:18

Nigel Farage confirms Brexit Party won’t stand against Conservative candidates in an election if Boris Johnson promises to leave the EU without a deal.

Does Nigel trust Boris ?

QueenOfThorns · 03/09/2019 10:19

@cherin fingers crossed for you today Flowers

DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 10:21

Does Nigel trust Boris ?

No. Hence his statement which is intended to goad Boris into crashing us out with no deal. But it seems a strange move to make. Unless Old Nige has started believing his own press. I guess stranger things have happened .....

DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 10:23

Boris therefore faces the uncomfortable prospect of deselecting Winston Churchill’s grandson

That's only a problem if said grandson is prepared to make publicity over it (or allow others to), with pictures of his grandfather (who he might be trying to make proud ?) left, right and centre.

wheresmymojo · 03/09/2019 10:23

I never thought I'd luffs Philip Hammond. But today, on this particular topic, I do.

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 10:24

Keith Simpson @keithsimpsonmp
Spoke on Radio Norfolk first thing and sai I would not be seeking reselection for Broadland constituency. Decided that months ago but now feel like the first officer to man the lifeboats on the Titanic! #OldSweat

This guy is completely off anyone's radar as far as I'm aware!!!

Don't know if that means he'll rebel but it's a surprising one.

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RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 10:24

Keith Simpson is a moderate BTW.

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RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 10:26

Daniel Hewitt @danielhewittitv
Co-chair of the 1922 committee Cheryl Gillan has just got into Number 10, followed by a number of CCHQ staff.

Antoinette Sandbach and Sir Nicholas Soames have just gone in to see the Prime Minister. Sir Nicholas told me he was “going to ask the Prime Minister some questions”.

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OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 03/09/2019 10:27

basil totally on the football front. I regularly go to matches and most people I meet are remainers. Many of those who are leavers are lexiters and aren't happy either. Not that there isn't a crossover between leavers and footballs fans at all, like most walks of life.

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 10:27

Kate Ferguson @kateferguson4
I understand that Tory MP Caroline Spelman has decided she is NOT going to rebel against the Government tonight.

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wheresmymojo · 03/09/2019 10:28

I think a few of those who haven't said anything will rebel.

It's what I would do if I was them...if I was as incensed as I am now and threatened with being de-selected I wouldn't give them the pleasure of advance notice.

I'd keep my mouth shut and then cross the floor.

Basilpots · 03/09/2019 10:28

@LonelyTiredandLow no apology needed. It’s unfortunate that EDL have tried to align themselves with football fans and I hate it when you see teams flags at these marches but that sort of fan is a noisy minority.

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 10:32

Alex Wickham@alexwickham
Another undecided: Keith Simpson says he isn't sure how he'll vote today

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Peregrina · 03/09/2019 10:32

On Philip Hammond according to Mark Wallace, of ConservativeHome, there has already been a legal case which established that losing the Whip makes a candidate ineligible for selection so his local Party can't save him.

Except that, if as it seems, he is popular locally and his local party is behind him - he just has to stand as an Independent Conservative, and I think he'd probably win.

Butterymuffin · 03/09/2019 10:33

Philip Hammond has been amazing today. It's never who you expect, is it?

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 10:33

Tamara Cohen@tamcohen
Former aide to Theresa May has told me she won’t rebel tonight as she’s loyal and feels very strongly that MPs taking control of the order paper is a “constitutional outrage”

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DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 10:40

Former aide to Theresa May has told me she won’t rebel tonight as she’s loyal and feels very strongly that MPs taking control of the order paper is a “constitutional outrage”

Somewhere there's a kettle, and somewhere there's a pot;
and they're both calling each other names, whilst claiming to be not !

Random18 · 03/09/2019 10:42

RTB I saw somewhere else that Keith Simpson voting with government

JustAnotherPoster00 · 03/09/2019 10:44

Mary Creagh
@MaryCreaghMP
After consulting lawyers, I have written to Cabinet Secretary Sir Mark Sedwill demanding that he stop the Govt’s Get Ready for Brexit campaign.

It’s Tory party propaganda, funded by the taxpayer. It break election purdah rules and the Civil service code.

PerkingFaintly · 03/09/2019 10:44

The answer to Will-of-the-People™ is "There is No Mandate for No Deal".

(Thank you to the poster who linked the Led By Donkeys projection on the white cliffs of Dover, about Gove saying No Deal isn't what Leave campaigned and voted for.)

Peregrina · 03/09/2019 10:49

Former aide to Theresa May has told me she won’t rebel tonight as she’s loyal and feels very strongly that MPs taking control of the order paper is a “constitutional outrage”

Who or what is she being Loyal too? I don't doubt that Philip Hammond would normally regard himself as loyal - he didn't resign until Theresa May had stepped down, but he has realised that those now in charge of the Conservative Party have taken it in a direction which he no longer believes to be Conservative.

DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 10:53

Since we're standing on shifting sands, maybe there is a way forward - with no-deal looming - of trying to gently tease a thread from the narrative that should the UK leave the EU, it would be the right outcome against an alternative where Leave was predicated upon lies and a bad faith campaign that cloaked the no-dealers from the public.

I'm still pondering on the BXP situation. Farages statement sounds like a threat. And people who have the upper hand don't need threats. In fact they weaken themselves by issuing threats (Sun Tzu or Caesar, take your pick). And to back that threat, he really needs to be seen to have a BXP candidate in all 650 constituencies ?

Feels odd he popped up today, that's all.