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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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PostNotInHaste · 03/09/2019 10:55

Fingers firmly crossed for you Cherin Flowers

DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 10:55

I'm guessing Treeza wants a gong for her efforts which won't be happening if she rebels and Boris is still around to say no.

After we get rid of the Monarchy, the honours system will be next. Unless there's a 2-for-1 offer at nihilist knockdowns ?

Apileofballyhoo · 03/09/2019 10:56

JustAnotherPoster00

Mary Creagh
@MaryCreaghMP
After consulting lawyers, I have written to Cabinet Secretary Sir Mark Sedwill demanding that he stop the Govt’s Get Ready for Brexit campaign.

It’s Tory party propaganda, funded by the taxpayer. It break election purdah rules and the Civil service code.

Thank God people are coming at them from all angles.

Cherrypi · 03/09/2019 10:58

The Brexit Party probably can't fight all the seats at a general election due to money and lack of infrastructure/experience. Maybe Boris will let them have the labour leave ones if they don't fight the tory leave areas.

Jilljams · 03/09/2019 11:00

I wonder what Johnson will be promising people like Soames and Sandbach at their meeting. Surely they know better than to trust him. I’ve sent an email to my mp asking them to rebel.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 03/09/2019 11:01

Peter Oborne
@OborneTweets
·
1h
Imagine the pound had crashed to record lows with Corbyn in charge. Imagine the headlines. The anger. The lacerating contempt. But it's Boris Johnson in Number 10, with his plan for No Deal. So it's ok.

Rhubarbisevil · 03/09/2019 11:02

I’m not really one for violence but I so want to punch Boris in the face. And then shave off all his hair.

And then parade him naked through Whitehall whilst I ring a bell and shout “shame...... shame... “

Butterymuffin · 03/09/2019 11:03

Soames and co should ask him to answer the questions set out in Hammond's letter. He won't be able to, of course.

Farage's move looks panicky. He must be worried.

Butterymuffin · 03/09/2019 11:05

Anyone who is a constituent of a Tory MP with non-hardline views should contact them and urge them to rebel. All encouragement might be helpful.

Basilpots · 03/09/2019 11:07

Farage is a pressure group whilst he is nowhere near power he can promise what he likes without the bother of ever having to actually having to do it. He has more influence by exerting pressure on the Tory Party from the outside than he ever would with just a handful of BXP MPs on the inside.

Peregrina · 03/09/2019 11:07

Where can we find Hammond's letter? Has it been posted and I missed it?

DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 11:11

The Brexit Party probably can't fight all the seats at a general election due to money and lack of infrastructure/experience. Maybe Boris will let them have the labour leave ones if they don't fight the tory leave areas.

That makes no sense ... it presupposes Boris will make the Tory party no-deal. Which doesn't seem to have the support he might have thought.

On the other hand, a Tory party fighting an election against no deal (since Farage has conveniently stepped into the limelight) makes perfect sense. It would calm the moderate Tories who are despairing. It would turn any election into a more traditional Tory/Labour fight. And if the ERG aren't happy, they can join the Brexit party. The one weapon Boris has that Theresa didn't, is .... Boris. He seems to be much more popular with the Tory faithful than she was.

Or, to put it another way, if Boris had to stitch up JRM and chums, in order to be PM, he would.

LonelyTiredandLow · 03/09/2019 11:12

Am looking after 2 kids who's parents didn't realise school starts tomorrow today and it's giving me a fair bit of free time while they all play! I'm packing at the moment with a moving date of 28th Sept. I've had a letter asking me to confirm who lives here for the electoral register. If you were me, would you return it or wait? They won't be able call one before October and I have to notify the council for council tax anyway...is that leaving it too close to the wire if we have one on 14th Oct? Confused

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 11:14

Sam Coates Sky @samcoatessky
NEW

Court papers reveal an Aug 15 email from No10 Parliamentary handling advisor Nikki da Costa to the PM and Dominic Cummings saying they should prorogue Pt from Sept 9 (this Monday)

A handwritten note from the PM Boris Johnson on Aug 16 said that “the whole Sept session is a rigmarole ((redacted)) introduced to show the public MPs are earning their crust, so I don’t see anything shocking about this decision”

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RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 11:16

Paul Waugh @paulwaugh
Helluva story, but No.10 source says there's 'real anger' over it: "Dom has not said this. He does not believe this to be the case. Such anonymous and unsubstantiated claims should not be printed.".

Henry Mance @ henrymance
Downing Street has repeatedly misled journalists (for example, over NHS funding and by claiming the Yellowhammer dossier was old), so its denials now aren't believed. They should have seen that coming.

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Peregrina · 03/09/2019 11:20

Lonely - fill in the register now, and then amend it as soon as you have moved.

I had a problem with DD travelling, but since she hasn't got another home yet, and might be back soon (or might not!), I thought it legit to leave her on the register.

Mistigri · 03/09/2019 11:23

Dan Hodges on Twitter (hard Brexiter, Johnson supporter):

Couple of worrying signs for No.10. Being told Labour and other opposition parties are minded to oppose any election before 31 October. And growing backlash within cabinet and amongst Tory backbenchers at deselection threats. One Minister "Cummings has overplayed his hand".

I know it makes me a terrible person but I'm loving this. The Johnson/Cummings administration is already starting to implode. Give it a week and Cummings will be out.

Peregrina · 03/09/2019 11:23

Such anonymous and unsubstantiated claims should not be printed."

Then the journalists just need to publish the document they have seen and let Johnson and Cummings call it out as a forgery.

It pleases me to see things slipping away from Johnson's & Cumming's control, but I saw the programme about the Nazi's last night, and we should be careful. It looked as though Hitler's power would be curtailed but an ill thought out deal helped to put him into power.

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 11:23

Alex Wickham@alexwickham
Re Johnson bypassing FTPA and calling an election with a one-line bill requiring a simple majority

A concern is that there is a majority to amend any election bill and add on a no-deal block

Which could hamstring the govt and leave Labour with what it wants...

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Basilpots · 03/09/2019 11:23

Lonely when we moved I filled the form in knowing I was moving then notified them once I was on electoral register at new address.

woman19 · 03/09/2019 11:23

@SamGyimah
I will vote against the Government tonight because it is the right thing to do.

OhLookHeKickedTheBall · 03/09/2019 11:24

lonely are you moving out of constituency? Ive sometimes seen notes marked about people moving at certain dates during election times. I'd be inclined to fill it in now then update later anyway.

LonelyTiredandLow · 03/09/2019 11:24

Thanks Peregrina I will do that today.

If Parliament has been prorogued, that doesn't give BoZo carte blanche to leave EU earlier than 31st Oct, does it? I'm sure it has been asked before but I must have missed it.

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 11:26

Chris Giles @chrisgiles_
Classy

Liz Truss fusing to appear before select Committee.

Just like Cummings before her...

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
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QueenOfThorns · 03/09/2019 11:27

And then parade him naked through Whitehall

@Rhubarbisevil what have the poor people of Whitehall done to deserve that?