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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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Songsofexperience · 03/09/2019 09:14

Is there any sporting event on that day which could side-track a few Leavers?

Anything Royal?
Major WWII reenactment?

LonelyTiredandLow · 03/09/2019 09:15

Bugger me, it is! Bulgaria vs England too!

LonelyTiredandLow · 03/09/2019 09:17

Sky sports Shock
Quite funny if Cummings has picked this day. I suspect he is a cricket/rugger bugger.

DGR they both want the same vote scoop though?

DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 09:17

If I were rich enough a giant party or footy extravaganza with free tickets/fireworks/bands would be something I'd consider funding the day we discover the GE day.

I actually had an idea that some sort of massive festival - free tickets and shit - could appeal to the younger electorate (who should be most engaged, but historically aren't) if whoever is needed to win, wins.

LonelyTiredandLow · 03/09/2019 09:18

Not on until 8pm though.

LonelyTiredandLow · 03/09/2019 09:21

If it was a football/flag waving/army based event starting at 7am-9pm with a free drink per person upon entry... Wink

One of my old lecturers published some papers about festivals and wellbeing. It could be a way forward after this mess.

Peregrina · 03/09/2019 09:28

I think he will stick to no deal if BxP isn't going to split their vote

I suspect that in part this is because Farage knows that he won't win many, if any, seats. But it also denies the Leave voting Labourites a chance to vote for someone who is not Corbyn. I think for many older Labour voters, voting Tory is a vote too far. I think then that Farage has probably misjudged this.

cherin · 03/09/2019 09:34

I think it must be on the 14th of October because of the 5 week shut down? Isn’t it? If the election was on the 1.11 AND the proroguing was blocked by court, parliament would have more time to discuss and possibly pass the bill to stop ND. That would make it slightly more realistic at least in terms of timing. As it is now, I feel it’s going to be a miracle to pass w bill through two chambers in...48h??
I read somewhere that once royal assent for proroguing is given, no decision taken by MPs can be considered valid, not even if they were to sit down in parliament and refuse to physically leave (which would be, IMO, quite a spectacular idea. Get police to escort 200odd people out. I need to write to my labour mp...) which means whatever date the queen approved is the cut out date

I should pass by Westminster around 1:45, will blow to my dose of raspberries if I find any protester. Surely that’s not enough to be arrested ;-)

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 09:35

Sam Coates Sky @samcoatessky
Striking analysis from @JackBlanchard this morning suggesting that for all the Sun Tzu talk this No10 hasn’t got the tactical advantage it might want:

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
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OhYouBadBadKitten · 03/09/2019 09:35

I can't go tomorrow Cat I've only got so much flexibility with work :( but at least we can tag team with each other! I'll be listening to you adding your voice to the crowd. Well done!

And Shock at the idea of them not imposing purdah. Can they just do that?????

DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 09:37

Seems no deal is starting to bite already ...

www.fginsight.com/news/news/uk-farmers-facing-25-lamb-price-drop-as-continental-buyers-shun-contracts-90994

According to the British Meat Processors Association (BMPA), retailers in the EU are refusing to sign long-term contracts with UK exporters to avoid paying tariffs of 40-65 per cent on lamb after October 31, the current Brexit deadline.

(contd)

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 09:38

Mr Memory @ amirightsir
Today is the 80th anniversary of Britain's declaration of war on Germany and entry into the Second World War:
WIKI

It's been commented that if Nicholas Soames does indeed rebel, that today might not be the best day to try to deselect Churchill's grandson...

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DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 09:38

and ..

Mr Allen also suggested Ministers would need to be careful to ensure any no-deal support package for farmers did not violate World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules, which prevent Governments from compensating for tariffs.

“Whatever scheme they come up with has to distance themselves from compensating for tariffs, otherwise they will find they will be raising questions at the WTO,” he said.

“The Government might sail close to the wind on this because it will take the WTO a long time to deal with it and even then, what will they do, but Ministers have to be mindful.”

QueenOfThorns · 03/09/2019 09:39

Nigel Farage confirms Brexit Party won’t stand against Conservative candidates in an election if Boris Johnson promises to leave the EU without a deal.

How can BJ sustain his ‘it’s the fault of the EU/Remoaners/Corbyn’ rhetoric if he agrees to openly go for no deal? Isn’t the strategy to pretend that no deal is part of an elaborate game of chicken that he’s playing to get a better deal from the EU? If he accepts responsibility for no-dealing, then surely he’ll be held responsible for the massive pile of crap that comes with it?

yolofish · 03/09/2019 09:41

Philip Hammond was brilliant on Sky this morning. I've given up on the BBC, Sky just seem much more on the ball about questioning.

As an aside and completely off topic, does anyone know how to find the last page you were on on a thread?

DGRossetti · 03/09/2019 09:42

Nigel Farage confirms Brexit Party won’t stand against Conservative candidates in an election if Boris Johnson promises to leave the EU without a deal.

So in a pre-31st October election, we could have both Tories and BXP promising no-deal ?

Sorry, that makes no sense. Unless the end goal is a Tory-BXP coalition ? And are all Tory candidates going to stand on a no-deal platform ?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 03/09/2019 09:43

Purdah is what did for May against Corbyn suspension of that means the MSM are going to go harder at Corbyn if thats possible, say the shit even if its libelous the court cases wont be until after the election

prettybird · 03/09/2019 09:44

There was a piece last night from a big food exhibition currently on at Earls Court (sorry, can't remember the name of the exhibition, nor which news): the exhibitors there were saying that they were being hit badly by EU buyers refusing to buy from them because of all the issues.

They also went through with one company the Government's website instructions about what he should be doing to prepare. He didn't have a blue about what some of the things he should be doing. One was something to do with arranging for a deferred tariff agent (or deferred tariff payments?)

Basilpots · 03/09/2019 09:50

Re Flag waving football fans I am a keen footy fan and I do frequent a couple of my teams forums I occasionally wander into the ‘off topic’ areas where Brexit is discussed. Many of the opinions on Brexit do not differ too far from what is said on here. This is purely anecdotal I know but nevertheless interesting. Not all flag waving football fans are raving Brexiteers.

cherin · 03/09/2019 09:55

I think it was the business design centre ;-) and of course nobody has any clue! Which guidance can anyone get when the laws haven’t been discussed, let alone passed, and the government has started updating their portal on sept the 1st??? Idiots!!! In my field, which is fairly technical, nobody understands a thing. Do you accept or do you request CE markings on products? If I write w specification that triggers an order for 20 million £ worth of stuff (which I do) I’m supposed to know if one standard takes precedence over an other. We still have a plethora of British Standards that vaguely coexist with BS EN standards. Contradictions between the two can lead to things like grenfell. What am I supposed to do? There’s a paper on the portal that seems to be written in Coptic....

Random18 · 03/09/2019 09:59

Looks like Soames might rebel although not definite at moment

howabout · 03/09/2019 10:00

I agree with DGR again. The Brexit Party standing helps the Tory vote rather than splitting it imho. Lexit voters choose stay at home, vote Tory or vote Brexit Party or even Labour to save project Corbyn. Labour Remainers are still split between Labour and LibDems because they are split between pro and anti Corbyn. In ANY Labour / Conservative marginal this helps the Tories as Tory Remainers will either stay home / vote LibDem or vote Tory "to stop Farage". Why would they vote Labour?

On Philip Hammond according to Mark Wallace, of ConservativeHome, there has already been a legal case which established that losing the Whip makes a candidate ineligible for selection so his local Party can't save him.

cherin · 03/09/2019 10:02

Im sure I wrote this “hilarious” anedocte before...:A friend of mine works with port authorities and was visiting one back in early March, and witnessed the following conversation between managers:
The government wrote to say we need to prepare
What do we need to do?
Mah, we should probably hire people if we need to do border checks on boats
Good idea, yes. How many?
Boh
Shall we say...5? Or 10?
Let’s do 10
What do we write on the job advert?
What do you mean?
Like: do we need accountants to check bills and invoices, or do we need inspectors to physically verify containers content?
Ah. Boh
Well?
Mah, let’s keep it generic, and then we see depending on who turns up

Brexit preparations!!!

Pilcrow · 03/09/2019 10:04

As an aside and completely off topic, does anyone know how to find the last page you were on on a thread?

Yolo I usually bookmark - hover my finger (I'm on an iPad/smartphone) on the bottom right of the post where I want to mark my place, and a little 'bookmark' icon appears. Press that and it will save your place. When you reopen the thread it should be at the same place you left off.

If on a desktop I think you just click with the mouse instead of pressing manually, but I haven't done it this way for a while so my memory's rusty!

RedToothBrush · 03/09/2019 10:14

And are all Tory candidates going to stand on a no-deal platform

There is a lot of very contradictory messaging going on though with voters only listening to the one they agree with.

Johnson has been pushing no deal is too awful for the EU to allow it

Whilst also saying we'll just be fine with no deal

Whilst saying the EU want to punish us with no deal.

All at the same time.

I did think that Tory MPs were being asked to support Johnsons plan of going for no deal if he couldn't get a deal through or face de-selection blah blah a couple of weeks ago.

However since its been polled by hope not hate how many constituencies support no deal and think it good, it does look it could mean Tory MPs face something of an up hill battle from the word go, in a pre 31st Oct election.

Assuming of course we have an election...

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