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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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WaterSheep · 02/09/2019 21:01

How did we get here ?

I ask myself this every day. The students in my school have no idea what those in power are doing to this country, and yet they will be the ones to suffer. Sad

Cwenthryth · 02/09/2019 21:01

Absolutely Hazard, for the gender critical politically homeless, unless they are also a resolute remainer, the Tories may become a reasonable option if they clearly stand up for preservation of the Equality Act/against self-ID, even a hold-your-nose option for people who have never considered them before. Most GC women I know are fairly lefty, but everyone has different priorities.

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 21:03

BTW, pay attention to the stuff about Hammond. Hammond and Corbyn working together in anyway is a repeat of the visual of Cameron and Osborne the bringer of austerity in the ref.

Hammond is toxic to Labour due to his role as Chancellor.

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AutumnCrow · 02/09/2019 21:10

As a GC woman concerned with women's rights, i would never vote Conservative. Not least because Amber Rudd and Penny Mordaunt were awfully happy to trash them.

CordeliaWyndamPryce · 02/09/2019 21:12

if Johnson guarantees election will be 14 October

Is that possible in any legal sense? Or, indeed, would even that be enough to actually be able to trust his word?

I've emailed my local Labour MP to point out that BJ is impressively untrustworthy and a GE should therefore be after an extension is agreed or be announced via VoNC and unity government. She usually responds, but with the party line. This time I'm expecting "a labour government will win any election and make the country a place of unicorns and rainbows so we want an election at all costs".

woman19 · 02/09/2019 21:12

Disagree with you completely there Cwenthryth Sorry.

The idea that tories have an iota of integrity even being associated with the Equalities Act which is and always was a Labour Act, is dangerously misplaced.

I have been revolted that MPs like David Davies have been welcomed so innocently to the debate.

I do suspect the ill informed tory bias of the self styled 'feminist' threads, but I suppose that if they were actually feminist threads they'd be banned.

Hands have been greased to enable so called trans rights to replace Women (and Children's ) Rights. Labour, Libs, SNP and Greens have been idiotically naive. Tories are using it to gain traction with women voters.

But won't disrupt the thread with this.

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 21:13

The trans stuff was used by Trump.

It's about framing the 'Liberal elite' as out of touch with popular opinions and enforcing ideas onto the people without consultation and concert.

It's a fracture point of wider issues but because there hasn't been any listening to concerns it produces this visual of 'totalitarianist thought and practice' by the left and liberals.

It also suggests what I fear.

Johnson is going for a 'rust belt' strategy like Trump. He thinks the election can be won in seats which aren't the obvious marginals. He also expects the electoral energy of the opposition to go into marginals which isn't going to win them enough seats.

A culture war GE would be exceptionally nasty. It will be about even more deliberate polarisation. You either are with us, or you are the enemy. Thus forcing people to 'pick a side'.

This is horrible horrible stuff.

Will it come to pass?

The opposite need to think very hard about Hilary Clintons downfall in the US and how to avoid a repeat here.

Time isn't on their side...

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Cwenthryth · 02/09/2019 21:16

I think you’re probably in the slight majority (of GC women) Autumn but there will be others who would consider them in some circumstances - not least that in our current voting system most of us have to vote tactically anyway. So if it’s anyone-but-Corbyn, and LD have ruled themselves out (most other options have no chance anyway)....some may end up at Tory. Unless they have a Change/Independent candidate that hasn’t jumped on TWAW.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 21:17

" Downing Street has “war-gamed”...the scenario of Labour opposing an election and thinks“t here is a way round it”

How ? Confused

Unless they have the votes to either repeal the FTPA (simple majority) they need ⅔ of MPs to call a GE

Maybe they mean psychological pressure on Corbyn to agree ?
Maybe he'll fall for it, if the Anti No Deal bill passes and he gets out when Starmer is in the loo.

However, if the bill fails and No Deal happens, the Tories would be far too busy fire-fighting

Hoooo · 02/09/2019 21:18

GC feminist here.

Will never vote tory.

Ever.

woman19 · 02/09/2019 21:22

The trans stuff was used by Trump
Cos his backers paid for it. Magdalen Berns, bless her, posted a video which I've lost of American dem explaining how it had been used to disrupt the American left. Old tricks.

Football, for example, is a sticky one in the culture war. Working class, male, macho and multi cultural.

It is not quite as simple as little cummings might think.

He's a posh white boy after all.........

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 21:23

Going by the Brexiters' performance the last 3 years, I'm not convinced I should be terrified by their game theory Hmm

I agree with red that a plain old culture war GE would be terrifying though Sad
It would inflame hatred and endanger obvious minorities.
It could make the current national split very longterm & bitter

Cwenthryth · 02/09/2019 21:24

Labour, Libs, SNP and Greens have been idiotically naive. Tories are using it to gain traction with women voters.
Not sure what you’re disagreeing with because this is exactly the point I was making, I wasn’t clear enough. Tories only become an option because everyone else isn’t an option in this scenario. 🤷🏻‍♀️ Like I said everyone has different priorities and levels of tolerance of difference of opinion on other issues (eg David Davis’ anti abortion views - accepted by some because they could agree on concerns about gender ideology and put abortion rights aside for this issue, unacceptable to others who feel they cannot work with someone anti-choice in any circumstance).

Sorry very tired and a bit poorly and not being clear, I don’t think. Will stop posting Smile just trying to explain what I meant.

PerkingFaintly · 02/09/2019 21:24

A culture war GE would be exceptionally nasty. It will be about even more deliberate polarisation. You either are with us, or you are the enemy. Thus forcing people to 'pick a side'.

This is horrible horrible stuff.

Yes, this is what worries me most too. I care less about the results of the GE, than I care about what the Trump-alikes will cheerfully break to get there.

(I do care about the results of a GE, and Brexit even more, but I can see something even more concerning than those on the near horizon.)

CordeliaWyndamPryce · 02/09/2019 21:25

Also a GC feminist who'd never vote Tory. Green, Labour, Lib Dem, Monster Raving Loony party. Basically, I'm open to anyone who isn't a Tory. Because JRM (and too many like him in the party) believe that abortion should be illegal even in the case of rape. And then there's the "rape clause". And... too many others to mention.

The trans issues are important, but (even if only considering women's rights in an election) the tories cannot be trusted even a teensy bit.

LouiseCollins28 · 02/09/2019 21:25

Red, Thanks as ever. I trust that your “horrible horrible stuff” remark was a reference to the prospect of a deliberately polarising GE and not a comment on the prospect of a Prime Minister using a ‘rust belt strategy’ which from my POV I would understand to be actually seeking to faithfully represent the U.K. equivalent of the “rust belt” if such a thing their is.

On a more general note, I wonder if someone other than the PM can request an extension to Art 50? Barclay as Brexit Sec, for example. Very deliberate use of “I” in Boris’ speech I thought.

CordeliaWyndamPryce · 02/09/2019 21:25

Also a GC feminist who'd never vote Tory. Green, Labour, Lib Dem, Monster Raving Loony party. Basically, I'm open to anyone who isn't a Tory. Because JRM (and too many like him in the party) believe that abortion should be illegal even in the case of rape. And then there's the "rape clause". And... too many others to mention.

The trans issues are important, but (even if only considering women's rights in an election) the tories cannot be trusted even a teensy bit.

prettybird · 02/09/2019 21:26

The problem will be (and is) the micro-targetting that will be used. Cummings is a master at it Sad - and the rules to improve transparency in social media are not yet in place Sad

Dangerous Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 21:27

Legally, afaik only the PM can request an A50mexension (or Revoke !)

Hazardtired · 02/09/2019 21:28

Ohhh that's interesting woman I'll keep that in mind next time I go snooping in FWR. I just thought people were shits lol. I get aggy when pp/op's describe things as niche like class, disability, race, religion, DV. The assumption women are singular and singular women are able bodied, middle/upper class, christian/non religious and white just infuriates me.

I threw the towel in on lurking when in the space of 5 mins a woman who used to be Muslim was othered and then I read that, imo a staggeringly common dv tactic, was "niche" and therefore hard to understand...what's to understand? Some men are dicks do we not know this Grin

Cwen can't imagine Johnson and co and the equality act being firm friends but I'm sure he can play pretend to win GC votes.

CordeliaWyndamPryce · 02/09/2019 21:29

louise, I noticed the stress on the word "I" too. But I think it was a ploy to attract Brexit Party voters in the forthcoming general election. Or, at very least, he is leaving open the option of quitting as PM.

borntobequiet · 02/09/2019 21:30

Dear God decided to spend a day walking with no access to media or social media and got back slightly sunburned, happy and exhausted to all this...
I’m red (literally).

prettybird · 02/09/2019 21:33

Currently watching "The Rise of the Nazis" on BBC2.

Uncomfortable viewing Sad

LouiseCollins28 · 02/09/2019 21:34

My first thought too Cordelia I admit. I Just wondered that there might be an alternative way of interpreting but I think a pre election ploy or setting up an “I quit” moment are at least equally good explanations. Something about Boris does say to me that he’d be unlikely to walk since he’s wanted the job since he was a child.

QueenOfThorns · 02/09/2019 21:38

Uncomfortable viewing

It is indeed Shock