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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

OP posts:
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RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 21:40

It's about polarisation and this idea that if you believe x you have to believe y. You are either one of us or one of them. Without any middle ground.

Thus you get the idea that if you are gender critical you are 'aligning' with 'the enemy' for example. It's about using your identity to define your politics rather than encouraging you to think about policy.

You either are a 'metropolitan Liberal' or are 'down to earth Common senser who tells it like it is'.

The whole thing kills nuance and critical thinking and replaces it with tribal identity. It asks you to 'pick a side'.

OP posts:
fedup21 · 02/09/2019 21:40

The opposite need to think very hard about Hilary Clintons downfall in the US and how to avoid a repeat here.

What can be done to stop this shitstorm?Sad

If you (not addressing this to anyone in particular) were JC-what would you do now?

Violetparis · 02/09/2019 21:46

If I were JC or indeed any of the opposition parties I would be plastering photos of The Bullingdon Club and Farage in his fox hunting gear all over social media.

chomalungma · 02/09/2019 21:47

The opposite need to think very hard about Hilary Clintons downfall in the US and how to avoid a repeat here

I hope, I really hope, that other parties have been looking at the rise of Trump, the tactics and are learning ways to overcome that.

People know what happened.

PerkingFaintly · 02/09/2019 21:48

I understood Red's comments as referring to the sort of Rust-Belt Strategy that consists of offering "culture war" feelgoods to people who've lost out economically instead of offering anything more substantial like affordable homes or living wages or secure employment.

So, culture war cookies but not anything that might have to be paid for out of his or his ilk's pockets, or might reduce their power.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 21:51

Maybe it's like that morning after the ref:
the horror on his face when he realised wht he'd done - and was afraid of being blamed for it all

Now he realises being PM is not like being London mayor, when he could dump the work on others and swan around having fun

PM means being responsible 24 / 7 and the stress is very aging

woman19 · 02/09/2019 21:53

@PickardJE
👀

Gove has pulled plans to publish “watered down” version of the government’s Operation Yellowhammer no-deal Brexit contingency plans, after ministers decreed that the findings would still alarm the public.

Scoop via @GeorgeWParker

www.ft.com/content/c95b92ea-cd90-11e9-99a4-b5ded7a7fe3f … via @financialtimes

'Culture wars' just sounds like the meat and 2 veg fascists we've been fighting since the year dot, tbh.

Like Tony Blair said: the way to beat them is to argue with them. It's all we've got.

(and arrest them, it's been fun watching fascists being arrested this week in britain, I have to say. Grin)

Information about mortality rates with the crash out being witheld is way more scary........

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 21:57

Louise I personally think the ignored 'rust belt' needs a lot of things and has been ignored for years by all political parties and a change in that attitude is long overdue.

The problem for me is how cynically this will be done.

Trump went for 'abolishing Obamacare' which was hugely popular as a policy amongst these communities. The trouble was they didn't realise what Obama are actually was, and many were reliant on the Affordable Care Act...

Brexit is very much in the same vein. Austerity issues have been blamed on the EU for years. Yet if we exit it will be those hardest hit by austerity which are most at risk.

If investment does go into issues these areas need does appear, I'd be delighted. However its like Johnson promising money for the NHS only for it to be exposed as money that was already pledged and not as new as it seemed.

I don't think anyone really wants to solve issues. Just exploit the disaffection.

OP posts:
Hazardtired · 02/09/2019 21:58

asks you to pick a side

Isn't it in Marxism* analysis where they say the white working man is encouraged into pick a side tribalism and the bosses encourage racism which is a form of tribalism? Because by encouraging racism you make the disadvantage white man feel superior over someone else and he is to distracted to notice/care that he is being used by his bosses.

*i know nothing about Marxism

Apileofballyhoo · 02/09/2019 21:58

Violetparis that's a good idea.

CordeliaWyndamPryce · 02/09/2019 22:00

louise, I suspect he's keeping his options open. Playing the "I'll never let you down" card means that he leaves himself the option of fighting a general election before 31st and appealing to Brexiteers, getting a version of WA through and defending it on "I didn't ask for an extension and this was the best that the big bad HoC would let me do - vote for me now so I can properly screw the EU in trade deals", or stepping down as PM but leaving himself the option of trying again at a later date.

Violetparis · 02/09/2019 22:00

I also think there have always been nasty culture wars, the right just find different targets every few years. The first I can remember is in the late 80's when single mothers were being blamed for all of the ills in society, no mention of feckless fathers of course.

smilethoyourheartisbreaking · 02/09/2019 22:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

prettybird · 02/09/2019 22:21

Why does the BBC keep saying that there will be an election on October 14th if MPs block No Deal? Confused

Quite apart from still needing a 2/3 majority to overcome the FTPA, the 14th is a Monday so would be highly unusual Hmm not that that in itself would stop anything in these back to front times Confused

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 22:24

I'm an independent centrist, so I choose which individual principles and policies I think make sense,
rather than agreeing to accept a job lot of them on a party slate.

I'm a GC, pro-choice feminist, but I fully accept some other feminists may be neither,
e.g. opposing abortion often for religious reasons

I prioritise avoiding No Deal above even these principles, because it is "hair on fire" urgent & dangerous.

I only get irritated with those who insist TWAW and that people can change sex, which ignores biology.
As an Aspie child, I was dreadful in church ( I got smacked Hmm) and at Christmas
("but there is no Father Christmas; the Virgin Mary is unfair to other women and also makes no sense; when you're dead, you're dead ... ! Blush )

Women's oppression comes historically from biology - the smaller physically weaker sex, more vulnerable due to pregnancy etc - and then society, religion etc most certainly exploits and adds to this.

However, ignoring the unique biology of women, the unique problems we face as a sex, only helps sexism.

Rant over

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 22:28

The BBC employ too many foolish talking heads and / or govt mouthpieces

The Beeb used to be a reliable source of info, decades ago, even if their analysis of it was generally in the Establishment's favour

Now they can't even get basic - and important - facts correct.

They are spreading ignorance, not knowledge.

That rattling sound probably comes from Reith's unhappy ghost

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 22:30

Lewis Goodall@lewis_goodall

Can you imagine the reaction if May had tried to remove the whip from those Brexiter MPs who rebelled against her deal?

Including, erm, Boris Johnson?

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 22:30

Culture war coming into the open inevitable, really. The Ashcroft surveys made it clear it was always Brexit = nostalgic authoritarianism that got the votes in. ☹️ And Blair was clear about that from the start.

As someone who remembers the culture wars of the Thatcher years (Thatcher pursued neo-liberal economics over the top of reactionary social politics) my lasting memory is how grim it was to grow up as one of those groups.

BUT ultimately that, and the Poll Tax, was their undoing. People just aged beyond it. One reason for the Labour landslide was precisely that they promised a liberal social discourse (and legislation). Cameron then tried liberal social discourse and right-wing economics.

One way to look at Brexit is as a last hurrah and fight back for those who hated the social liberalism of the Blair years.

I am quite sure Red suggested this culture war (with authoritarian areas of the UK pitted against socially liberal areas, and nasty economics on top) absolutely ages ago.

It's going to get very, very nasty if they take this route.

Remember, in the Ashcroft polls, the answer that correlated highest with a 'Leave' vote was 'yes' to the question, 'has feminism gone too far?'

☹️☹️☹️

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 22:51

I hope the link below works.
The tweeter has shown some Tory propaganda from the late eighties, demonising lesbian & gay rights (in education).

Now, you guys know this.

But the replies below are bloody fascinating.

Many of the respondents are shell-shocked.

And i find thst amazing. How can they not know?

I've thought for a long while now that one of the reasons GC feminists get such a hard time is because we have a generation who have grown up with women's rights and gay rights - and they just have no idea at all how fragile and recent those rights are.

They cannot conceive of a world where Section 28 is in place, where women are routinely sexually harassed at work, where MPs (like David Alton) bring in legislation to restrict abortion. And constantly, constantly having to fight those battles.

And this thread isn't just a reminder of how grimly effective that kind of culture war is but also makes me think I'm right.

It also reminds me of how bitter and harsh politics and political demos were in those days. Culture wars slip very easily into quite brutal policing of 'othered' groups and quite violent resistance. ☹️

So I hope, for all our sakes, this doesn't happen.

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 22:51

Link:

twitter.com/joncstone/status/1168629999915741184?s=21

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 23:04

One of the first jobs of a replacement PM - if we get one - would be to publish Yellowhammer in full
The Tory govt's own report on No Deal

Jim Pickard@PickardJE

Gove has pulled plans to publish “watered down” version of the government’s Operation Yellowhammer no-deal Brexit contingency plans,
after ministers decreed that the findings would still alarm the public.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 23:05

Maybe if the Opposition pass their Anti No Deal bill and turn down a GE, they could next pass a motion requiring the govt to publish Yellowhammer

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 23:15

Have you seen this tweet? A sound engineer has done a best-guess estimate to reverse-engineer the sound editing during Boris Johnson's speech, to give an idea of how loud the 'Stop the Coup' chanting was:

twitter.com/andfinally/status/1168611052898136065?s=21

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 23:16

Oh, BigChoc, wouldn't that be sensible and great?

We can dream ...

Apileofballyhoo · 02/09/2019 23:25

However, ignoring the unique biology of women, the unique problems we face as a sex, only helps sexism.

Well said BigChoc.

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