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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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Sostenueto · 02/09/2019 16:33

Corbyn will never step down, and there lies the problem . he has tried though to bring people together unlike the tories, I give him his due there, but the press and peoples fears about his past has wiped out any good he has done these past months.

Peregrina · 02/09/2019 16:34

Grieve and Gauke are popular local politicians.

I think they would get back in, especially if the LibDems did little more than put up a paper candidate. They have nailed their colours to the mast and are not likely to change, unlike Nicky Morgan or Amber Rudd.

Sostenueto · 02/09/2019 16:35

Wtf! Another woman Priminister? Ah well, in for a penny...........Grin

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 16:36

Labour have NOT said they will go for a remain vote, they have no confirmed that at all, because most of their voters outside of London are LEAVERS!

Well, no vote from me then. Wherever that leads. No one is going to claim my vote was a vote for leave in any way shape or form.

We're supposed to be wiping out the Tories, not Labour Hmm

JustAnotherPoster00 · 02/09/2019 16:37

The only party confirming an anti brexit stance are lib dems.

Wouldnt trust them as far as I could throw them with Swinson in charge, dutiful Tory lapdog that she was, if they thought they could be kingmakers for the Tories again they would come running to Johnsons side

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 16:37

Our constituency (returned Labour MP in 2017) was Remain, btw.

JudgeJudyismyinspiration · 02/09/2019 16:37

The EU has known for a long time that No Deal was a serious possibility. confused.It has been putting in contingency plans, unlike the UK hmm

That is categorically untrue.

The UK is very prepared for no deal, with three years and counting of real preparation. The EU have done nothing, only France and Holland have invested in extra staff and systems at the ports, no other country has a policy at all. Most alarming of all, Ireland have done absolutely nothing to prepare for no deal, and many are furious. It was pretty obvious the way it was going, but Leo thought the EU would win the day and he could sit back smugly. Well now there is a panic to catch up, but we have weeks not months, nor years, and we need to be ready.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 02/09/2019 16:38

Citation needed on the rest of your bollocks post judgejudy

PostNotInHaste · 02/09/2019 16:39

Well one thing for sure is it will be far from boring the next few weeks. I do hope blood presumed stocks are ok.

It will be interesting how many new posters we get coming to these threads who have joined recently , done a few posts on some other subjects then launch themselves in over here- a very familiar pattern to most of us now over 3 years down the line.

DarlingNikita · 02/09/2019 16:40

Wouldnt trust them as far as I could throw them with Swinson in charge, dutiful Tory lapdog that she was, if they thought they could be kingmakers for the Tories again they would come running to Johnsons side
I don't think so. She and the rest of the LDs know very well that the Tory coalition put them in the wilderness.

The UK is very prepared for no deal, with three years and counting of real preparation

bellinisurge · 02/09/2019 16:42

@JudgeJudyismyinspiration , if the UK is so prepared, why were there people on here less than a month ago whining about lack of ice lollies in the supermarket during the heatwave.
And some were also whining about ice cubes not being in the shop.
Christ knows how they would cope with what even Gove calls "bumps in the road".
In Ireland right now , people are apparently being warned not to order things from UK websites because of likely import issues.
And our "Get Ready for Brexit ", has some shit about you might need to do a couple more things if you are going on holiday. That's it.

JudgeJudyismyinspiration · 02/09/2019 16:43

Most leave MN have given up posting, but we are still here post
You can call us the silent majority if you like.

What I will say to you, is that at some point in the coming weeks there will be a resolution to this, and when it comes you choose whether to get behind the country and make it work, or continue to whinge.

Either way if you want to rejoin the EU, we can in years to come, the great news is that we will remain a true democracy and can shape the future.

chomalungma · 02/09/2019 16:44

Interesting poll...if you believe it

Sebastian Payne
@SebastianEPayne
·
11m
.@ConsEurope
have done a 10,000 MRP poll of Great Britain. It says a snap election would produce...another hung parliament!

Con: 311 (-6)
Labour: 242 (-20)
Lib Dems: 21 (+9)
SNP: 52 (+17)
Plaid: 4 (-)
Green: 1 (-)
Others: 1

Peregrina · 02/09/2019 16:45

This was true up until Ken Clarke called BlowJob and his cronies out as Right Wing Nationalists.

This statement was echoed at Saturday's Oxford Demo. There must be an awful lot of long-standing Tories who are now in an absolute quandary as to who to vote for. In Local and EU elections they lent their votes to the LibDems or Greens. Now? I suppose it would depend on who was standing and if people like Hammond, Grieve, Stewart etc. do stand on an Independent Conservative ticket.

prettybird · 02/09/2019 16:45

You just have to laugh at JudgeJudy Grin Bless Wink

bellinisurge · 02/09/2019 16:46

@JudgeJudyismyinspiration are all Leave supporting MN ers in favour of No Deal?

TheElementsSong · 02/09/2019 16:47

most of their voters outside of London are LEAVERS

Now, is that actually true? 🤔

Sostenueto · 02/09/2019 16:50

judgejudy I expect your well insulated against any no deal brexit consequences?

bellinisurge · 02/09/2019 16:51

Take a trip to Remain voting Liverpool and Manchester some time.

prettybird · 02/09/2019 16:51

No, it's not true - but little things like facts and evidence don't matter to JudgeJudy Hmm why does that name remind me of JudgeFlounce? Wink

Emilyontmoor · 02/09/2019 16:52

The Tories were the party of business?

I have been doing a bit of research into the John Poulson scandal. He was the bent architect who ripped the historic heart out of many Northern cities and replaced it with poorly designed substandard buildings (contributing to the feeling that northern communities have been devastated post the 60s and 70s, it wasn’t just their economic base that was undermined, it was their historic identity too). Who was mired in the scandal when the full scale of the corruption was exposed, Reginald Maudling, Tory Chancellor, who with his son had been on the board of Poulson’s company.

The Tories were never the party of ethical businesses whose economic activities created employment and shared prosperity. They were always the party of the shysters. So when Boris says fuck business he means fuck ethical business because they are in the way of his ambition and the interests of the assorted hedge fund managers disaster capitalists and self interested billionaires who support him.

GoodJobSteve · 02/09/2019 16:55

Given the local election results round here, I'd expect our long standing brexity Conservative MP to be replaced with a Green or Lib Dem. There are a lot of peeved soft Tory voters for whom the hard brexit putsch is a step too far.

GaspodeWonderCat · 02/09/2019 16:55

@JudgeJudyismyinspiration - is the best laugh I have had all day. No citations for any statements just bullshit and bollocks.

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 16:56

Of course, any GE, at any time is quite possibly going to result in the BlowJob himself losing his seat ...

Run, run, little BlowJob. Run as fast as your chubby little legs will let you, to grab a safe seat with your plump, moist hands.

Hoooo · 02/09/2019 16:57

A leaver citing actual facts or credited sources???

Hahahahaha.

Bless.