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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

OP posts:
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DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 16:17

They THINK they are though and act as if they had the upper hand and could be a bully.

It's why tinpot dictators from all around the world worship at the altar of the English public school system.

I think part of the reason we are where we are is the Tories - probably about the 60s - started subtly shifting, and letting the riffraff in. So what we are seeing now is the old guard trying to correct that and dump the nouveau riche elements ? What's made me think that is the way what the Tories are becoming has drifted from what they were when contemporaries of mine who were earning OK decided they were "Tories".

If I was on medication, I'd up it (maybe it's a sign I need some Grin) but this feels like it should end with a dragon being slain.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 16:17

BJ may well have back channel talks with Farage about a pact

< sorry, that sounds disgusting somehow ! Blush >

but I'd expect Farage's precondition for support is that the GE be held after No Deal

I think he's said before that his party would savage go full attack mode against the Tories in any GE before Brexit,

precisely because he doesn't trust the Tory party itself
and certainly wouldn't be stupid enough to trust twisty Cummings who is really running the Tory show atm

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 16:19

Meanwhile, it seems (no surprise to some) the UK really is home to the biggest wankers in the world.

www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2019/07/05/2003718170

...
The UK ranked first globally, with 61 percent of those surveyed claiming to masturbate once per week and 22 percent reporting masturbating a few times per month.
...

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 16:19

Yes, BJ wants to call a GE when he can win it.
Politics as usual there

However, he depends on JC agreeing to a GE

If JC has any sense, he won't agree to one when Labour probably can't win
(but he is very dim and also reckless)

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 16:19

'Who is Red?' Is easily the funniest thing I've read on MN in a while. It's pretty meta as lines go.😁

I'm Red.

JustAnotherPoster00 · 02/09/2019 16:20

Labour will continue to languish with no policy on the fence.

In the event of a PV before GE, Labour will campaign for Remain against a Tory Deal/No Deal

In the event of a GE Labour will seek to negotiate a SM/CU Lexit and then this will be given back to the people in a PV

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 16:20

I am Spartacus
I am red

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 16:21

Well, Cummings and Farage in a death struggle sounds like fun.

Sostenueto · 02/09/2019 16:21

I think opposition is now in a corner if BJ calls election before 31st October ( a date he will move at the last minute till after the 31st October) they can't very well say no to a GE not after JC still going on about having one the idiot! Who, in their right mind if you are opposition leader, would want a GE now? I would wait till we fall out without a deal till the shit hits the fan ( about 3 months after ) then go for GE. Corbyn cannot win at the moment ( if ever)

CrunchyCarrot · 02/09/2019 16:22

Don't know if this has been posted yet (this thread's moving faster than I can read it!) - Jon Worth's latest Brexit diagram (huge!)

jonworth.eu/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/Brexit-What-Next-13.png

Songsofexperience · 02/09/2019 16:22

For many remain tories the idea of Corbyn terrifies them more than brexit, so you have those voters to consider too.

True in a situation with brexit with a deal. Don't think it applies to no deal and when faced with a government with authoritarian tendencies.
Remain Tory voters are attached to stability. Not sure either type of chaos appeals to them. If Corbyn ends up representing some sort of normality after all, he'll win.

Hoooo · 02/09/2019 16:23

No, I am red!!

JustAnotherPoster00 · 02/09/2019 16:24

If JC has any sense, he won't agree to one when Labour probably can't win

He's been told he cant win one since he became leader so I dont suppose it matters if he calls 1 or not in his mind because Labour are still mainly focused on domestic issues, improved NHS and social care, improved education and so on.

If Johnson has been giving it large to the media about how much money he plans to spend on various things its going to be a bit harder for them to use the 'magic money tree' line they used last time and if they go for 'Chaos under Corbyn' and people fall for it considering were now on our 3rd Tory PM and its been less Strong and Stable than was forecast

PostNotInHaste · 02/09/2019 16:24

I think though it looks like Johnson would increase his majority all bets are off as polls can be wrong (and mostly were in 2017, think A late YouGov one was the closest?). It went from being about Brexit to being about various other issues, can’t see that happening so much now but self interest will undoubtedly play a part for some.

It helps to stand back and try and look at it taking all the drama and emotion out of it . Personally I think we are absolutely into unchartered voting territory at the moment and any grand proclamations of how voters will be voting are just that and we have no idea how they will translate on the night. All this is designed to elicit certain feelings which it is hoped will translate into certain voting patterns but they are simply predictions and nothing more and it’s far more to play for than some will have us believe.

There are a number of variables that will come until play between now and an election that could change things significantly. It’s going to get messy. I guess what we can all do is look at our specific area and think what we can do , which will vary hugely depending on current MP and who strongest opposition will be, which won’t be known for sure until announced as at this point . Also currently we don’t know for certain how any pacts will play out .

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 16:24

A sign of our tmes. WTF

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/01/nhs-reports-protester-to-prevent-extinction-rebellion?

A retired doctor who took part in non-violent environmental protests was visited by police at his home

after his local NHS trust reported him to the government’s counter-terrorism programme.

Sostenueto · 02/09/2019 16:25

I'm red, red with anger at this cat and mouse shit going g onAngry

Songsofexperience · 02/09/2019 16:26

Of course, je suis red

JustAnotherPoster00 · 02/09/2019 16:27

*and people fall for it then they opted for No Deal and so at that point fuck it, I'll just be 1 of those that died to get the bigots and the hard of thinking their very own Argentina on the Thames

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 16:27

One tactic for Labour - if they really are about policies, what's best for the country and eschewing personalties - would be for JC to refuse to vote for a GE, thus denying Boris of his Christmas present, and then step down and allow a new Labour Leader to be elected ready for "next time". Corbyn would be the scapegoat but take the curse with him ?

JustAnotherPoster00 · 02/09/2019 16:29

Who do you suggest will bring all of the Labour wings together and be able to get a fair hearing by the right wing MSM DGR

Sostenueto · 02/09/2019 16:29

My Tory MP just votes how the government tells him to vote. But there is a large Brexit Party opposition in my constituency. Labour is last I believe. Never fear there's always the Lib Dems. GrinHmm

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 16:29

For many remain tories the idea of Corbyn terrifies them more than brexit, so you have those voters to consider too.

Absolutely agree with previous poster.
This was true up until Ken Clarke called BlowJob and his cronies out as Right Wing Nationalists.

And you cannot underestimate the force of that.

He came pretty damn close to using the F word there.

prettybird · 02/09/2019 16:32

The EU has known for a long time that No Deal was a serious possibility. Confused

It has been putting in contingency plans, unlike the UK Hmm That's why it unilaterally published temporary measures months ago to ensure that trains, planes and automobiles will continue to be able to move freely for a while in the absence of a transition period. That's why Rotterdam, Hamburg and Calais have been spending millions on Euros on preparing. That's why over a year ago they began recruiting and training hundreds of extra Border Force personnel unlike the UK which has only just started the recruitment process Hmm

So no, BlowJob's "briefing" that the EU will only change its mind if it thinks the UK is serious is just another one of his lies Angry - aimed more at the domestic market to make him look tough than at the EU Hmm

The Single Market and principles upon which the EU is built are more important to it. And no, the German car makers and Italian prosecco producers are not going to come to the UK's rescue Hmm

A No Deal Brexit is indeed going to hurt the EU - but a) not nearly as much as it will hurt the UK Sad and b) it's not going to risk the even greater risk to the Single Market of throwing Ireland under a bus and/or giving the UK special concessions without any responsibilities. Hmm

This has been done to death on these threads.

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 16:32

I would love for the Commons to refuse a GE, on the grounds of 'Mo GE before an extension,' at the very minimum.

JudgeJudyismyinspiration · 02/09/2019 16:33

*Labour will continue to languish with no policy on the fence.

In the event of a PV before GE, Labour will campaign for Remain against a Tory Deal/No Deal

In the event of a GE Labour will seek to negotiate a SM/CU Lexit and then this will be given back to the people in a PV*

A PV can not take place before the GE Just there is simply no time to do one, there is zero chance of that. No one else is talking about that anymore, there is no time.

Labour have NOT said they will go for a remain vote, they have no confirmed that at all, because most of their voters outside of London are LEAVERS!
They will fudge it by saying they will get a better deal/will stay in CU etc but no one will know what they really stand for, or what they will do if they are in power, and so they simply won't vote for labour.

The only party confirming an anti brexit stance are lib dems.

Labour would lose the GE before or after brexit (and I am pretty sure that is what labour hope for too, not wishing to inherit any of this!)

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