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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:54

If BJ is so sure, then he'll accept a GE date before Brexit, to let the people choose

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 15:54

Sam Coates Sky @samcoatessky
As just told @KayBurley on @SkyNews we understand the cabinet to be told at 5pm that:

  • the concern is the EU "are not under any real pressure to engage on solutions until they know the process is not going to be taken over by Parliament."
  • until then EU say Brits not serious

Exc 2 - leak cabinet 5pm briefing being circulated in Whitehall cont.

  • "The EU will only get down to serious talks when they know they have to face the choice between a deal or no deal, with the third option of extension / referendum / revocation definitively ruled out".

Exc 3 - leak cabinet 5pm briefing cont

  • "So what happens in Parliament in the next ten days will be critical. If we emerge with renewed authority, we can then get talking seriously through Sept and up to Oct European Council"
  • Claims EU Com "are willing to look at alternatives"

Exc 4 - leak cabinet 5pm briefing cont

  • (On Backstop) "We have preliminary worked-up legal texts plus assessments of the legal and process changes needed to replace checks otherwise required at Irish border, and will feed all these in at the right moment"

Exc 5 - leak cabinet 5pm briefing cont

  • "Obviously the EU will not welcome any of this. My concern is that the are not under any real pressure to engage on solutions until they know the process is not being taken over by Parliament."

Does logic lead to an election? We'll see

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RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 15:56

Sam Coates Sky @samcoatessky
Analysis of leak of blueprint for the 5pm meeting, key points are:
1. Johnson gvt thinks that Pt must be deprived of ability to do extension/2ref/revocation
2. Only then will they talk. And they believe Commisison willing to look at backstop alternatives
3. Draft legal text ready

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RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 15:56

David Henig @davidheniguk
We're back to the wholly mistaken idea that the Commission will only move in Brexit negotiations if threatened with no deal. Given that starting point is wrong, the proposed actions are likely to be similarly misguided.

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RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 15:58

But David that doesn't matter cos its not about a deal or no deal. Its about who will win and election and what the UK public think the EU will do and what remainers/leavers are doing. Not reality.

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BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:59

If it's a GE after Brexit, more normal date would be 7 November, to be on a Thursday.

GEs and local elections are traditionally on a Thursday - and our system is geared for that

If he goes for 1 November, then he really is shit scared about the effects of No Deal being visible v quickly:

1 Nov is a Friday and many firms would decide to make it a long weekend, avoid transport then and have stocks accordingly

No Deal effects wouldn't be visible at all by then

JudgeJudyismyinspiration · 02/09/2019 16:01

The briefing is exactly right.

The EU will always hold out in hope that parliament will take out the possibility of the no deal/or any brexit at all. Their first choice would be to have an endless delay and keep the UK in (and paying all the contributions without any say or influence, how wonderful to muzzle the UK and still have the money) Of course this would be ideal for them.

So until they know that all other options are off the table, why would they offer anything better? Assuming they even care to offer a serious deal? I gave up the idea of a deal some time ago, as have most people with average or above average intelligence. The EU's only concern is to deflect as much as possible, so they are not seen to have this as painful as possible (despite ensuring it is just that)

If there is some chink of hope for a deal, then that will happen on the 17/18 October during the summit when they know that parliament have run out of options.

So for all those hoping for the next best thing of a good deal, it would be wise to wait until then.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 16:01

Just electioneering

Some of the ERG are stupid enough to still believe the EU will blink at the 59th minute

Hallo, DD ! Grin

Therefore many Brexiter voters believe this too, because they asume their politicians know what they are doing
"ASSume makes an ass .... "

Myriade · 02/09/2019 16:01

So basically BJ is starting to bully the EU in doing what they want them to do still wo any acknowledgement that the U.K. is going to be much more hurt than the EU ever will.
Or are they hoping the ones they will really scare is the RoI that will then be putting pressure on the EU? Confused I mean RoI is THE country who will definitively suffer as much as the U.K. will....

They are still in full mode of ‘we control the world. Don’t you know who WE are?’

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 16:02

See you on the other side...

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DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 16:03

If the chances of a Tory win were as good as people think, Boris would have engineered a GE the second he took power. He even had a prepackaged excuse - his own statements when Gordon Brown took over.

The fact he didn't speaks volumes. Whatever the polling, there is no god-given Tory win dangling off a low branch like a dog-shit bauble.

The last 3 years have seen some seismic shifts beneath the froth of popular opinion, and polling has become a tad unreliable. Just ask one Theresa May - who called an election when it was a shoe-in.

Only the day before the 2017 election most polls were predicting a Tory win, and the main stories were "how much" with 50 seats being floated.

I know it's hard to believe, but it's entirely possible some people being polled have lied to the pollsters. Shocking behaviour I know. You have to imagine where they got the idea.

There's also the "don't knows". Which for the past 18 months would have been myself and MrsDGR. And still is, frankly.

Then there's the new voters who were 16 in 2017 ...

Finally, is the GE going to be purely a Brexit one, or will there be attempts to chain it to other manifesto initiatives ?

Has anyone else heard rumours that local authority election planners have started booking rooms ?

DarlingNikita · 02/09/2019 16:03

Judge, I don't see and didn't say that Labour could win.

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 16:04

“The Tories in England long imagined that they were enthusiastic about monarchy, the church, and the beauties of the old English Constitution, until the day of danger wrung from them the confession that they are enthusiastic only about ground rent.” — Karl Marx, 1852

DarlingNikita · 02/09/2019 16:05

If the chances of a Tory win were as good as people think, Boris would have engineered a GE the second he took power.

Very good point.

JudgeJudyismyinspiration · 02/09/2019 16:06

If the GE is after brexit day, it will take out the brexit party.

Labour will continue to languish with no policy on the fence.

Lib dems argument null and void, they will retreat back into obscurity.

Conservatives will have been true to their word, and delivered brexit, they will say they are the only ones to be trusted with our democracy, they are the only ones that will deliver a post brexit success.

Who could blame them for choosing that route, should they do so?

JudgeJudyismyinspiration · 02/09/2019 16:07

Who exactly is red I wonder....

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 16:08

Giving in would mean the EU either abandoning Ireland, or abandoning the SIngle Market
Either option would destroy the EU

Losing some UK trade would be painful for them

  • but nowhere near as painful as the Uk losing EU trade, plus the 40 FTAs with 70 other countries, plus the other 800 trade & standards arrangements with other countries, plus essential agencies like EURATOM .....

Anyway, the backstop is only 1 of about 40 things that the ERG say they won't accept in the WA
and there is absolutely no time to negotiate a new one and get the agreement of 27 governments and the EP

It's all electioneering by BJ
He wants No Deal

No Deal is what the ERG and the Tory hedge-fund donors have wanted all along

  • much bigger profits than any other Brexit
SistemaAddict · 02/09/2019 16:08

Ah fuck. That's all I've got. I'm stressed, unwell and exhausted. And it's cold and rainy oop north today.

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 16:08

So basically BJ is starting to bully the EU

The definition of a bully is someone who takes advantage of a superiority - usually in physical strength - to intimidate an opponent (loosely).

So what characteristics does BJ have that are superior to the EU ?

Oh, fuck, I've just realised. It's gonna be a hair-off. It has to.

Myriade · 02/09/2019 16:08

@JudgeJudyismyinspiration, I’m not sure why it is the role of the EU to give the best deal ever to the U.K. or to make this thing that Brexit is a easy as possible.

It’s the U.K. who decided to leave the EU. Why should the EU be running after the U.K. imploring it to stay? Or making it easy?
It’s up to the uk to propose something. It’s up to the uk to find solutions. Because the bottom line is that, by triggering Art50, the U.K. HAS LEFT the EU. All the rest is about how it will do so and surely it’s the UK responsibility to ensure it goes smoothly, not the EU (bar the usual caveat that they will do what makes it easier for them. I mean they are not stupid).
And by triggering Art 50, the UK has put itself in a weak position because it’s not in the EU anymore... so it HAS to find a solution at all cost.

Basically, the U.K. has probably made all the wrong choice right from the start. It can’t then blame the EU for not being ‘nice enough’. Is there some PROPER experts around the advise those PMs?

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 16:08

If I were Farage, I would push hard on the line:

You can't trust BlowJob. He lies. He always lies. Vote Conservative & he will push the WA on you once the GE is done & negotiations with EU fail.

Whether it's the truth or not won't matter. BlowJob has form for being a liar.

Myriade · 02/09/2019 16:11

DG you’re right, they can’t bully the EU because they are not in a position of strength.
They THINK they are though and act as if they had the upper hand and could be a bully.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 16:11

"Who exactly is red I wonder...."

Who exactly is JudgeJudyIsMyInspiration I wonder ....

Or maybe some longterm Mumsnetters very concerned about Brexit, on either side, are posting a lot about it

JudgeJudyismyinspiration · 02/09/2019 16:11

Boris did not call an immediate GE for obvious reasons, he waited until the polls put him way ahead of the others, he waited until he could show the country what a great PM he is and will be (the stats tell us he has been a very decisive and strong leader so far) he is shown us he is a capable and professional leader at the G7. Together with his energy and drive, he has been able to show a short space of time how good he is, particularly if you compare him to Corbyn.

For many remain tories the idea of Corbyn terrifies them more than brexit, so you have those voters to consider too.

JudgeJudyismyinspiration · 02/09/2019 16:16

my What a very tired and old argument, no one thought it would be easy, and hey presto it isn't, which is why most have come to the conclusion we should just leave whatever the cost. They came to that conclusion because they have given up on the EU.