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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 15:26

We haven't nominated a new EU commissioner for the UK. New commissioner are due to start 1st Nov. If we do get an extension we have no commissioner as it stands...

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BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:26

Oh crosspost
Is the BEFORE at all genuine ?

Most Brexiters would go batshit at giving voters a chance to stop No Deal
The ERG want a GE after

also because it would be easier to win

..... or have they been holding pact talks with Farage ? Hmm

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 15:28

www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/hs2-high-speed-rail-line-16853498.amp?__twitter_impression=true
HS2 high speed rail line to be delayed by up to three years
HS2 trains were due to start running to Birmingham in 2026, but the Government is set to announce a delay until 2028/29

'Delay'

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BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:28

Could quickly nominate Farage as our Commissioner, if there is an extension ? Grin

Step up in pay for him

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:30

YES, but JC wouldn't risk it, surely ?

Lewis Goodall@lewis_goodall

There is one way anti no dealers can guarantee election will before Brexit day.

Quickly table no confidence motion and change govt before PM tries to dissolve.

Would be electorally dangerous but...they would take back control.

And if Tory MPs are going to be deselected anyway..

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 15:31

Another thought about NI.

The latest polls show DUP and Sinn Fein losing vote share to Alliance.

If Alliance win seats at the expense of Sinn Fein that's another MP who will go to Westminster...

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prettybird · 02/09/2019 15:32

If it all comes to a head tomorrow, it's a sad quirk of history that it will be exactly 80 years since the UK and France declared war of Germany, following its invasion of Poland, this starting WW2. Sad

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:36

Anna Isaac@Annaisaac

Goldman Sachs' take on parliament's ability to block no-deal with its new, smaller window for action ahead of 31 Oct:

"This window is sufficiently wide for MPs to legislate against 'no deal', as long as they have the numbers to do so."

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:38

BBC Radio 5 Live@bbc5live

"The party is being reshaped by Dominic Cummings.

I’m not even sure he’s a member of the party."

@DavidGauke says strategy by Boris Johnson’s top adviser risks losing "millions" of Conservative votes.

JudgeJudyismyinspiration · 02/09/2019 15:39

Op, Boris Johnson needs to hold on to power in order to deliver brexit, not just because he is enjoying being PM. Brexit is proving very hard without the numbers, and at some point the house will need to do some other work and will need a working majority.

It is clear the PM can not take the country without coming down hard on those that wish to prevent brexit, it has proved impossible to play nicely. Parliament tried that for three whole years to no avail. The bridging and compromise ended in disaster, with many remain MPs believing incorrectly, that they had a fighting chance of stopping brexit altogether.

The remain side are guilty of over playing their hand and trying to stop brexit altogether and not attempting a compromise.

The leave side are guilty of digging into a harder version of brexit, and they did not agree to Malthouse etc either.

The EU of course offered something that no one could accept. Which was helpful!
So that was the only agreement in parliament in the end.

We can not continue to delay and delay, that is why the rebels agenda is so deeply flawed. What would be the point of another six months of delay? Another six months of business uncertainty? Another six months waiting for a miracle to happen? I am afraid we are going to have to bite the bullet, and get on with it. We can not continually be stuck in such a toxic vicious circle waiting for some solution to present itself.

I do believe Boris will win the GE, I think it is pretty much a done deal if you look at the numbers (even without the brexit party contribution) and then there will be three/four more years to consider labour's next move. I am sure Labour are hugely relieved NOT to be in government at this time, or at any time in the future, it would annihilate the party from the inside out. Just as it has done to the tories.

Labour still do not have an official brexit party position people, three years later. We are still waiting.

Grinchly · 02/09/2019 15:39

I see RNorth has suspended comments on his blog.Pity, they were worth reading, as was the blog itself despite him being a leaver. He knew the European and trade machinery very well indeed, although his political analysis I felt was often somewhat lacking.

Whatever happens to poster JDD, I wonder?

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:41

Kate Proctor@KateMProctor

Irish border leaked papers in today's @guardian:


  • Alternative arrangement working groups find every single solution to backstop has "concerns and issues relating to it" 
  • Smaller businesses would struggle to cope 
  • Critics say dossier shows the Gov has no deliverable solution
BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:43

grinchly JDD went for a wider audience and posted btl as Anthony Wycher on Guardian CiF
He may have retired and given up now

howabout · 02/09/2019 15:44

Agree with BCF. Don't see EU agreeing extension to Jan 31st for anything other than GE. A PV would take longer than this. If the Opposition Motion effectively leads to a GE and Boris can deliver a GE before 31 October then difficult to see how Opposition reject a GE in order to demand an Extension to hold a GE.

DarlingNikita · 02/09/2019 15:44

I do believe Boris will win the GE, I think it is pretty much a done deal if you look at the numbers}

I dunno. I think it might be like the last time: biggest party but no majority. May brought in the DUP to sort that out; Johnson can't do that.

I wonder if Labour would try to form a minority government and have a supply and demand deal with the Lib Dems. I know Swinson has been clear that she wouldn't work with Corbyn, but supply and demand is not the same as being in coalition and she could sell it to her electorate as such.

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 15:46

I've lost the Twitter link but

GuidoFawkes (awful right wing) is running a story about the times Blair asked Queen to block legislation approved by House.

I am wondering if this is a 'softener' for what BlowJob might do with HoP passed legislation. 😳

Grinchly · 02/09/2019 15:46

That's interesting BCF. I am sure he has retired. The plan was Ireland with his lady love and cats, iirc. He called no deal very early. Sounded like a man very near the edge to me.

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 15:48

Christopher Hope@christopherhope
BREAKING Philip Hammond hits back at Boris Johnson over a no deal Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!
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JudgeJudyismyinspiration · 02/09/2019 15:48

darling Even Blair said this morning he did not see how Labour could win under any circumstances, he is leading the calls to avoid a GE. He isn't doing that because he thinks they will win....

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 15:49

I think biggest party, no majority quite likely.
But factor into that fewer Tory rebels, so might be a more loyal minority.

And the Brexit Party have to be factored in. Without a pact, they're a vote splitter.

Current thinking is that Cummings and Farage can't agree - but who knows what is going on there?

JudgeJudyismyinspiration · 02/09/2019 15:50

I think old Phil is acting above his pay grade, has anyone actually told him he is NOT a minister anymore. I am not sure who Hammond thinks he is, I am sure Boris will not even bother to read the letter, he has better things to do!

thecatfromjapan · 02/09/2019 15:51

LOL at Hammond letter, asking for written, detailed replies.

Not BlowJob's favourite terrain on which to engage.

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:51

The one reason the EU might agree to an extension is to have a GE definitely before Brexit,
to let voters decide finally about No Deal

The EU won't write in their communique:

"The grounds are that BJ is a lying authoritarian sociopath" - but that would be the reason
(if they do agree)

JudgeJudyismyinspiration · 02/09/2019 15:52

Brexit party voters will vote for Boris, now realising he is deadly serious about brexit. Farage will most likely support Boris under some arrangement.

If you take the brexit and conservative figures together, you have a majority for the conservatives under Boris Johnson, we also need to factor in the millions of labour voters that want to see the country leave the EU.

JudgeJudyismyinspiration · 02/09/2019 15:54

Most likely GE date: 1st of November. Completely legal, I have just checked.