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Brexit

Westminstenders: It's a trap!

956 replies

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 02:48

The more I think about it, the more I believe that the war gaming that Cummings has undertaken involved deliberately provoking the split in the Conservatives, uniting the Opposition and triggering a GE in October - before B-Day.

If you are wise then I think Peregina (and BCF) have it spot on.

The optics are all for creating a positive circumstance for Johnson and a GE. Everything is about a GE. There is nothing about either no deal or a deal coming from government presently. Its always stank of being a trap but it not being quite clear what they were up to.

I think it's starting to become clearer.

Timing is everything and perception is essential and that's always been obvious. Johnson has to be seen as tough and hard line.

May's problems all stemmed from the party civil war and lack of majority. Realistically to survive Johnson has to solve this somehow. A GE gives him the opportunity to get rid of troublemakers and purify the party but he can only do so with Brexit Party supporters. Or a coalition with the Brexit Party as a last resort.

His strategy all along has been about demonising and laying the blame. And it's quite clear there is deliberate incitement going on.

Johnson HAS to be challenged for it to work though. Either by Labour going for a GE or by a VoNC sooner rather than later so a GE can fall mid Oct.

If this doesn't happen Johnson runs into problems and has to seriously consider abusing to powers of the executive to do anything. I suspect he'd try this and we'd have a constitutional crisis but this is plan B rather than plan A.

Johnson wants to be in control of the timetable without being seen to do it himself.

That points to an earlier election he has denied he wants. And rumours are now circling for 14th October election that Cummings wants to call next week - the minor detail here being the mechanics a of the FTPA. Johnson can't just call a GE without repealing the act (needs a majority to do so which he doesn't have), complying with the act (2/3rds of the House vote for it which requires Labour support) or a VoNC and he then calls a GE.

A 1st Nov GE requires him to drive us over the cliff, which is currently technically unlawful and provokes no deal the government isn't prepared for. Its extremely high risk as a strategy. It might well still be in play, but its a last resort I suspect.

A VoNC and the temptation to form an alternative government is high risk strategy as despite saying Johnson would refuse to resign, he could well just be saying this to provoke the strategy.

Remember: Propaganda is always about playing to emotional behaviour to illicit the 'right' behaviour.

There is this mentally amongst some remain quarters that only leavers are 'stupid enough' to fall for this. And there is this idea that everything that's going on now is to whip up leave feeling.

Is that true? Who is taking to the streets?

I do suspect that enough hard-line Remainers will be so angry that they act recklessly with emotions rather than rational and potentially fall for it. That's the trick. Get people emotional and you can control their behaviour. That's what Cummings did for the referendum. Except he manipulated Leave voters. He's trying to do the reverse with Remain voters now. So the question is to what ends and it does seem to come back to what Peregina says above. And whether Remainers can see it and respond to it, or become so caught up with the outrage.

Of course if the public are wound up enough and their representatives on the remain side don't play ball, then they become disillusioned and this also has an effect on voter moral (less likely to turnout). So it could be win win strategy anyway, unless this danger isn't spotted and the opposition fail to call it out and defuse it. All their messages so far are not doing so. Win Win to Cummings.

I think there are definitely two plans in action here. A preferred one and a less preferred one. Strikingly for all this game theory talk, it does look like it's about Johnson and Cummings retaining control of the narrative and the timings for a GE. Brexit itself is something of an irrelevance to this. It's not what they are trying to achieve though. Johnsons priority is to stay in power, not manage Brexit responsibly though and that's the key to understanding it all, whereas Dealers and Remainers priority is simply about preventing no deal. Johnson ultimately doesn't care about this, if he can stay PM.

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RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 14:50

In massive queue for passport control.

Only one moving as it goes.

It's the one with the blue and gold icon naturally.

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tobee · 02/09/2019 14:50

Yes DGR regarding mortar attack and garden use

woman19 · 02/09/2019 14:51

Dog has been named Dilyn
We know more about his dog than we do about his kids.
How many does he have?

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 14:53

"if explicit rationale is to give Boris a decent majority to negotiate convincingly with EU"

Total rubbish and only the most idiotic ERG MPs would believe it

The EU will make only cosmetic changes to the backstop.
There is no time to negotiate after an October GE, even if they decided suddenly to dump Ireland / the SM and commit suicide as an organisation.

A totally new renegotiation for a soft Brexit - SM, FOM, ECJ etc - would probably be acceptable to them, but that would require another extension for at least a couple of years

tobee · 02/09/2019 14:54

Blah! I said introduce cat in gardens. Obviously meant dog! Confused

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 14:56

Ivan Rogers: the realities of a no-deal Brexit

Reality check about the stakes and what it means longterm

https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/09/ivan-rogers-the-realities-of-a-no-deal-brexit/amp/?

We face the most explosive political week for years, perhaps decades.

But remarkably little of the debate is about our real options.
We should be thinking 10 to 20 years ahead, not 10 weeks.

The primary issue with a ‘no deal’ Brexit is not, and never has been, how far our domestic contingency planning enables us to mitigate the short-term shock.

.... If ‘no deal’ happens, the day to day consequences – malign or benign – will inevitably drown out all else in the news for months.

No developed country will have done anything analogous in several generations, let alone by choice.

But this ought, nevertheless, to be secondary.
The primary issue is our medium-long term destination.

The central problem with ‘no deal’ is that it is being heavily (mis)sold as providing certainty, finality – a ‘clean break’ –
when it would manifestly do nothing of the sort.
.....
The idea, peddled by ministers, that businesses would have the ‘clarity’ and ‘certainty’ they need about the UK’s ultimate destination after a ‘no deal’ exit in eight weeks time, is laughable.🤦🏻‍♀️^*
^
They would not even know whether there would be ANY sort of preferential trading arrangement** ^
(in other words, one going substantially beyond WTO commitments, but going substantially less deep than Single Market and Customs Union membership, and hence delivering lower volumes of trade with the Continent than we have now)

*^
*with our largest trading partner, let alone what sort and when.^

In those circumstances well-run businesses will, inevitably and correctly,
(and rapidly, because the expected transition period would have disintegrated) *
conclude that they have no option but to plan on the assumption that there might be no preferential deal for the foreseeable future.*

Companies have fiduciary duties to their shareholders.
‘No deal’ would force and expedite radical decisions on business models and locations.

By the time, several years later, any preferential trade deal might be struck,
it would be far too late to reverse the bulk of those decisions.

This would be the worst possible outcome for the UK economy and for the public finances.

The tax take implications would dwarf the sums politicians obsess about on the UK’s EU budget contribution.

Fantasies of a Brexit dividend would perish rather fast in the public accounts.
....
No developed country has taken itself out of a trade bloc since the war
because the costs of deliberately making trade substantially more difficult with your closest neighbours are obviously large.

No trade deal has ever been struck between partners actively seeking to get further apart.

Trade deals have always been between those aspiring to converge and to increase trade flows, not diverge and decrease them.

No amount of repetition of ‘this will all be terribly easy’ ever makes it true.
....
Trade negotiations are not sentimental seminars full of economic liberals:
and that applies just as much, if not more, to negotiations with the US, let alone China and India.

woman19 · 02/09/2019 14:56

Total rubbish and only the most idiotic ERG MPs would believe it
Preach BCF Smile

DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 14:56

If it has to be approved by member states, doesn’t that mean that Boris could just veto it?

I think as soon as A50 was triggered, Theresa May agreed that the UK would not take part in discussions and/or votes involving the EUs response to it. Presumably this was because there's no written protocol to follow, so Boris could try and disrupt such a vote. But it would cost the UK dear as a country that no one could trust.

ImNotYourGranny · 02/09/2019 14:58

Will Boris be picking up the dog shit off the Downing Street lawn or will some other poor lackey have to do it?

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 14:58

Laura Kuenssberg @bbclaurak
The rebels' bill would force the PM to seek a 3 month extension of Brexit until Jan 31st, if there is no new deal passed by Parliament or if Parliament has agreed to no deal by October 19th I'm told

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tobee · 02/09/2019 15:00

Hmm. Is that the best they can do? January 31st? Or am I missing something (probably)

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:06

DG As posted upthread, BJ formally announced recently we would no longer attend EU meetings or discussions
and he gave our vote to Finland, with the instruction to abstain on everything

BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:10

The EU would need a reason for an extension, more than another "oh fuck we're in a mess"

The usual GE, PV options - and they might say the Uk now has these possibilities anyway, if they vote for them in the GE that BJ wants

Probably our best chance is that they don't want to be cast as "pushing us out", but will Macron - and other doubters - agree unanimously, as required ?

Have Starmer & co actually consulted the EU about this via back channels ? Hmm

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 15:11

Beth Rigby@bethrigby
Hear from opposition source MPs fear No 10 trying to lay trap. Goes like this:
- Govt puts down dissolution motion with “reasonable” polling date ob4 Oct 31
- Lab vote for it
- No 10 use prerogative proclamation power to move polling day to 31st Oct or after to cause no deal

What heck going on
- No 10 insiders say don’t ‘want’ a GE
- Rebels day No 10 framing No Deal vote as ‘confidence’ one so can say been forced into a people v parl GE’
- Then what? Pact with Brexit party? Tory losses in Lon/Scot/LDs marginals. Got to win 50-60 lab seats Mids/North

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prettybird · 02/09/2019 15:12

Not all the Party Conferences are finished by early October Hmm

The SNP Conference is 13-15 October #justsaying Wink

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 15:13

m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-johnson-uxbridge-seat-42-per-cent-think-no-deal-brexit-bad-for-uk-hope-not-hate-focal-data_uk_5d6d017be4b0110804522d11?o9b
No-Deal Brexit Opposed By 42% Of Voters In Boris Johnson’s Own Seat
Analysis of new mega-poll concludes just 35 seats across nation have more people who think no-deal would leave their family better off than those who think it will harm them.

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BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:14

red The large poll lead the Tories have now would likely jump if BJ gets No Deal through
because many people will think it's all over now and / or that the Uk has "won"
Farage would be neutralised as a danger for at least a while

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 15:14

Well what would you know...

Iain Watson @iainjwatson
I'm hearing - following today's discussions - key @UKLabour shadow cabinet members want to see action to prevent No Deal before agreeing to an election

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DGRossetti · 02/09/2019 15:16

DG As posted upthread, BJ formally announced recently we would no longer attend EU meetings or discussions

I know. But didn't Theresa May come to an arrangement whereby the UK wouldn't be marking it's own homework too ?

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 15:17

Lord Speaker @lordspeaker
When I assumed office as Lord Speaker 3 years ago I did not quite expect the current political position. One proposal is that the Gov should appoint 100 new peers. Nothing could be worse. It would be totally against the recent appointments policy which has been one of moderation

John Rentoul @johnrentoul
Also, the House won't allow more than 2 new peers to be introduced per week, so Johnson can't flood the chamber with hard Brexiters

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BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:17

We've had many polls showing most people don't want No Deal

  • but it doesn't stop thise same polls giving the Tories a large lead and BJ a huge one over JC

Under fptp, with that lead, BJ can get a working majority with only 33% of votes

Tory Remainers may be angry, but to date they are still more frightened of JC than No Deal

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 15:19

Jim Pickard@pickardje
Paddy Power has suspended betting on a general election to be called, following news that PM Boris Johnson has called a cabinet meeting for later today.

The odds of the election to be announced fell from 2/5 this morning, into 1/5 and finally 1/10 in the last hour....

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BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:21

DG May's policy wasn't so clear:
we still attended the usual EU meetings at all levels,
but to show goodwill didn't voting on matters affecting the EU's future
Could have done, however

BJ has gone much further than she did, given our vote to Finland and made the full disengagement from all meetings

RedToothBrush · 02/09/2019 15:24

Tom Newton Dunn @tnewtondunn
Excl: Boris Johnson planning a snap general election in five weeks time if a law to block No Deal passes, BEFORE the key EU Council

www.thesun.co.uk/news/brexit/9847442/boris-johnson-snap-election-before-october-31-latest/amp?__twitter_impression=true
DO-OR-DIE Boris Johnson to call for snap election BEFORE October 31 Brexit date if he loses to Remainers this week

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BigChocFrenzy · 02/09/2019 15:24

Yep, he's going for it

Only questions are:

  • Will he try to pretend the GE date will be before Brexit - so voters could stop No Deal
  • Will JC believe him and whip accordingly ?
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